Doctrine and Advantages shouldn't cost PP

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[Mysthalin]

What's with calling everyone, who wants the system to be like what it was originally intended to be - an RPG with "skills" once you level up, elitists?

I mean, what is the first description that comes to your mind when you're asked to explain EiRR. You most likely say "It's a Multi-player Persistency mod for CoH". Wouldn't the removal of the so called grind kind of also remove what the mod is supposed to be? Sure, the grind could be made less... grindey, but just saying "gief us all at once!" is bad. Look at the instant rank 8 weeks. According to what I heard - we lost 25 percent of our player-base right there.

Another thing - how does it make sense that we should be catering to the whims of "casual" players that MAY play the mod for a short time, a game every few days, instead of the whims of those that ALREADY play the mod, a few games every day. If we need 10 casual players to fill up the shoes of 1 standard player in terms of games played per week, then casual players are just not a worthy investment. Sure, you can play casually, nobody is going to hang you for that, but demanding it to be easier on you because you don't feel like you can devote the time is frankly put - not right. I mean, you don't expect to actually grow muscles by doing 10 push-ups every other day - why should you? You also likely do not go about gyms to tell the ones with great big muscles that they're elitists, because they have big muscles and don't share them. It doesn't make sense.

[drewmaw]

I'm glad to see that I was the catalyst to such a fine debate so far. I can definitely understand the most difficult task of balancing a game like this. All I know, is that I agree with most of you who're saying that grinding away sucks in this game, but I also agree that, in a game like WoW, you can't just give everyone lvl 80 status and expect the game to be fun, But, this isn't WoW, and nor is their enough people to even the playing field out like WoW.

Let's look at another recent best selling game that uses a form of persistency: Call of Duty: MW2. When someone starts that game though, you are given kits that rival any other high ranking persons in the game, but it lacks customization. So, there's that. Another game that copied that formula is a Steam delivered game titled "Altitude" which is very addicting, and for the same reasons MW2 is - because you are competitive right out of the gate, despite a lack of customization.

Honestly though, like Tank was saying, playing the game/mod is rewarding enough. This mod is like a board game, and is more like the war that vCOH is trying to mimic. I play this mod, like most, because it the mod works very well, and it's what CoH should have been from the start.

So, that all being said, Customization maybe the right direction. Maybe for newbs, you give them pre-made companies that well rounded and ready to go, (with perks and all) until they play like 5-10 games, then they unlock the ability to customize if they so choose. And, maybe doctrine choices should be more like perks, such that, you can choose different ones each game, exploring the different possibilities, similarly to MW2. You can choose up to 3-5 perks per game. just throwing out ideas.

[DisposableHero]

I definately come down on the persistency fence here. I like the idea that your company starts out 'basic' and over battles grows into something more customised through doctrine unlocks. That's what drew me to the mod.

If I wanted to play a ww2 RTS where the playing field was even at the start of every battle - besides player skill - and where my only goal was to work my way up the leader board, I'd go and play vCoH. Sorry, but that simply isn't EiR.

However, that being said, I do think that this isn't half a bad idea:

So, that all being said, Customization maybe the right direction. Maybe for newbs, you give them pre-made companies that well rounded and ready to go, (with perks and all) until they play like 5-10 games, then they unlock the ability to customize if they so choose. And, maybe doctrine choices should be more like perks, such that, you can choose different ones each game, exploring the different possibilities, similarly to MW2. You can choose up to 3-5 perks per game. just throwing out ideas.

Going on the present doctrine system as an example, one such pre-made company could have three level 1s, two level 2s and a single level 3 doctrine choice (or perhaps that is too much already?). After a few games (or when they have built up the necessary PP), the player can then buy new doctrines or switch their current ones around. It would still cost 25PP to swap out a level 1 doctrine for a new one, and they'd still have to be the requisite level to get access to the other tier 2 and 3 doctrines, etc.

Although I like the blank slate approach, I still think this is an interesting idea that should be explored a little more.

[Demon767]

you wouldnt have to start out with doctrine abilities and the need to swap and choose if the t3-t4s werent so dam powerful.

[tank130]

you wouldnt have to start out with doctrine abilities and the need to swap and choose if the t3-t4s werent so dam powerful.

This is the point I have tried to make often. Unfortunately I used the word "elite" and some people have run with it.
The bottom line is, the difference between a lvl 8 / tier 4 player and a new player is so dramatic, the new players just leave.

Sure, the grind could be made less... grindey, but just saying "gief us all at once!" is bad. Look at the instant rank 8 weeks. According to what I heard - we lost 25 percent of our player-base right there.

I think this is a good example of how fucked up the doctrines are. The doctrines allow for way too much bullshit!!! We currently have no doctrines and I see the least amount of bullshit I have ever seen in this mod. We now notice a couple of OP units, but that is it. Now it is a game of skills.

Another thing - how does it make sense that we should be catering to the whims of "casual" players that MAY play the mod for a short time, a game every few days, instead of the whims of those that ALREADY play the mod, a few games every day. If we need 10 casual players to fill up the shoes of 1 standard player in terms of games played per week, then casual players are just not a worthy investment. Sure, you can play casually, nobody is going to hang you for that, but demanding it to be easier on you because you don't feel like you can devote the time is frankly put - not right. I mean, you don't expect to actually grow muscles by doing 10 push-ups every other day - why should you? You also likely do not go about gyms to tell the ones with great big muscles that they're elitists, because they have big muscles and don't share them. It doesn't make sense.

I don't think we should be making adjustments based on any extremes. Basing the game on people who play several games everyday is just as unworthy as to adjusting it to a casual player. If you play several games everyday.....you really need to do something more contributing to society I say!!
I probably average 1 game a day during the week and several on the weekend. That would probably be more than one a day if I could actually find a game to play; but the player base is so small, that is not always possible. I would guess I play about 12 games in a week. imho that is more than a casual player, but not devoting my life to a computer game!!

I think generally speaking; if a new player does not feel like he has a chance in hell of winning within his/her first 10 games, they will not stick around. I did not win one of my first ten games, but I could see it was a result of not knowing how to play rather than not having the magic doctrine abilities. I came to this game before the doctrines ( as recently formed ) started.

I think the doctrines should be there as rewards to players as they progress. However, they should not make those players so dramatically unbalanced from others. Perhaps the doctrine unlocks could just be 3 or 4 items instead of the 10 as it is now. Perhaps they should just unlock some different units. Not some uber awesome unit; just a new unit that differentiates you from the other players. A reward in a way.

In short... make this game about skill and not about rewards. This mod will never be like VCoH because you can not reinforce. You build you army before you know where the battle field is or what the enemy is bringing. You can adapt to your enemy, but only if you have the units to begin with. Doctrines are not what make this mod as powerful as it is, or what it will become.

Forget Doctrines...L2P

[Mysthalin]

if you play several games a day you really need to do something more contributing to society I say!!

Like what? Paint something? Write poetry? Go change bedpans of the old people at your local retirement home? Each person's free time is their own - they can chose to do whatever they feel like, and have the financial and legal capability to do. If after doing everything one is supposed to do for the day : go to school/college/uni/work, washing the dishes/cooking/cleaning your room one wants to play EiRR, noone can deny a person that option - as long as it doesn't interfere with your life as a normally functioning part of the human populace. If I, for instance, manage to juggle school, friends, homework with a few games of EIRR each day and don't feel like going to rake leaves in the park, noone's going to make me. My free time - my choise.

I think generally speaking; if a new player does not feel like he has a chance in hell of winning within his/her first 10 games, they will not stick around

I lost my first 15 in a row. Didn't discourage me - as long as a player is willing to learn, he will come through eventually. In fact, you started out with almost instant T4s back then. Didn't really help.. Doctrines or not - an old timer will always beat a newbie, as the newbie is simply not used to the system.

[Smokaz]

Its getting more and more normal at a perhaps frightening rate that youth and adults spend a lot of time at the computer. But is that what we are debating here? Does EIRR have a social construct around it, saying that it wishes to promote casual play? In that case, I would like to have it pointed out.

[fallensoldier7]

I'm still under the belief that skill wins games, doctrines or not.  In an evenly skilled game between a level 1 and a level 8, the advantages/doctrine abilities that the level 8 has will most likely beat the level 1.  If the level 1 greatly out-skills the level 8, then no amount of doctrine abilities or advantages will help the level 8 win.  Same thing vice versa.  Usually, the only time doctrine abilities change the result of a matchup is when the teams are about evenly skilled.

There are some exceptions though, like the old Terror.  There's a difference between access to a doctrine and access to an OP doctrine though.

[Demon767]

my PE account i lost 70 out of 90 games. thats dedication right there.

[RikiRude]

it really comes to skill and luck never hurts. ive had games where all the allies were level 1 and they beat good axis level 8s, and ive had the reverse happen as well. skill and how much people are putting into the game. a low level player might have a better chance because they have their units fight to the death while the higher level is retreating squads with a couple men still in them or taking tanks off at 25% health.

[puddin]

This thread really makes me laugh.. 

IN vCOH there is a grind.  You start off with minimal resources and no doctrines... Its amazing what an hour can make when rolling out a KT and 3 snipers with sugs and p4s to back them all up along with some grens... 

Or a howie with rangers and a pershing from your teamate... 

Every game has a gring... Everyone is bitching because it takes a week or 2 to get the good stuff, maybe 3-4 weeks? 

Shit i didn;t even play till midway throguh last war and even then it was casual at first and within 20-25 games i was up there.  5 games a week, 5 a fuckign week in 4 weeks thats 20 games and guess what lose them alland ur like level 4...  PLay against high ranked players and its even better!. 

The benefit of level 8 players against new players is they don;t have much stuff and little vet, no muni or fu or manpower additions.  While the newbies get more PPs and such to level up much faster....

So a level 8 gets more vet more thne likly and an easier more relaxed game while the new player gets more PPs but more then lilkly loses. ITs a damn good system.  One fo the best i have seen. 

THre is a small grind, Not much, While you are levelign up and losing games guess what, Try out every different strat you want, even what you thinkm  might lose games, try some crazy shit, have fun with it, because when u get to level 6-8 you can start trying to win with all the strats you have learned, Stuff you never thoguht of and stufff you always wanted to try are suddenly welcomed.... 

Shit... Y^ou will probly lose... 80% chance, btu have fun and learn something from it... IF you have played level 6-8s down to their last callins.... Take the lose with some pride... You just whipped their ass.

[EIRRMod]

Not to mention that the rewards for playing in these games (low rank vs higher rank) will give benefits on the warmap.

In what hopefully is a risk-taking worthy affair.

There may be some modifiers added that makes the posibility of the gametype chosen by the lower ranked team for example, or ... well, some very interesting ingame stuff =)

You guys will be pleasently surprised when the warmap gets implemented, and it wont stop there!

The grind is noted, its unliked - so the Dev team and I will try to find solutions to make it less *LIKE* a grind.

[drewmaw]

Not to mention that the rewards for playing in these games (low rank vs higher rank) will give benefits on the warmap.

In what hopefully is a risk-taking worthy affair.

There may be some modifiers added that makes the posibility of the gametype chosen by the lower ranked team for example, or ... well, some very interesting ingame stuff =)

You guys will be pleasently surprised when the warmap gets implemented, and it wont stop there!

The grind is noted, its unliked - so the Dev team and I will try to find solutions to make it less *LIKE* a grind.

Much appreciated. I can't wait to see what you guys come up with. Thanks to all for a wonderful discussion.

[Computer991]

I LIKE THE GRIND, KEEP THE GRIND!!!

PM me for level 8 acounts 5 USD per acount

[Unkn0wn]

I'll do it for 3 bucks per account, I don't even need to farm for it

[Computer991]

I'll do it for 3 bucks per account, I don't even need to farm for it

Tbh that's not a bad idea, donate 10 USD or more free level 8 acount :O