How's the Grind Factor these days?

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[Masacree]

If both players were equally skilled maybe. But no 2 people in this mod are equally skilled, vet units can still get hard countered

You assume that the more skilled player will always win, which is obviously false. CoH has a lot of luck in it. Vet is just one of those factors that can increase your chances of winning.

[Al3ncon]

If both players were equally skilled maybe. But no 2 people in this mod are equally skilled, vet units can still get hard countered

After your logic people would either only win or only lose vs an opponent. Never would they sometimes win and sometimes lose, and that is obviously flawed.

[Malevolence]

Vet and leaderboard are just shiney anyway, doesn't serve any real purpose.

Vet doesn't mean anything? Are you crazy?

Vet has nothing to do with unit preformance.

[shockcoil]

If both players were equally skilled maybe. But no 2 people in this mod are equally skilled, vet units can still get hard countered

After your logic people would either only win or only lose vs an opponent. Never would they sometimes win and sometimes lose, and that is obviously flawed.

Not at all. I didn't say anything like that. A lower skiller opponent can win based on numerous factors like map imbalance, company build or maybe they were having a lucky game etc. Vet is just not one of those factors.

[Masacree]

If both players were equally skilled maybe. But no 2 people in this mod are equally skilled, vet units can still get hard countered

After your logic people would either only win or only lose vs an opponent. Never would they sometimes win and sometimes lose, and that is obviously flawed.

Vet is just not one of those factors.

Lol.

Really?

Do I need to spell this out for you?

 If my units are even 10% better than normal than of course I'm going to be more likely to win a battle then if they weren't. I don't understand how you could possibly think that's not true.

[fallensoldier7]

Even though your grens do 20% more damage, if I greatly outskill you then you would still lose..

It's like those people who noobstomp all day and get tons of vet.  Then, when they play a real game against good players, they lose a lot of their vet and usually lose the game.  The only reason they could accumulate the vet in the first place was because they were noobstomping, but even the extra firepower or survivability they get from the extra vet can't outweigh the huge skill level difference when the noobstomper plays a real game against good players.

I think that's what David is trying to get at.  It's true too.  I would name people that this applies to but that would just be too mean

[Masacree]

Sure, but even you admit that they have to

greatly outskill

the other player.

Let's say you slightly outskill a player, but they have hordes of vet. Who's gonna win that one? I'm guessing it will be quite a bit closer than it should be, at the very least.

[shockcoil]

Your vet 3 grens still lose a stag just like a vet 3 stag still loses to a p4. The only time vet makes a difference is at the end of the game when both teams are down to their last units and actually that's a pretty rare situation nowadays.

[Masacree]

Your vet 3 grens still lose a stag just like a vet 3 stag still loses to a p4. The only time vet makes a difference is at the end of the game when both teams are down to their last units and actually that's a pretty rare situation nowadays.

Because the only units vet units ever fight is their hard counter, which they can't even damage, right?

[fallensoldier7]

Takes tactics and strategy to get your stag in position to fight those vet 3 grens.  That's where the skill comes in.

Oh well, it's impossible to tell what "slightly outskills" means.  Yes, veterancy does help units perform better, but skill is still more of a factor than veterancy.  If "slightly outskills" means that vet will still help the lower skilled player beat the higher skilled player, then those two players might as well still be at the same skill level.

[Computer991]

Your vet 3 grens still lose a stag just like a vet 3 stag still loses to a p4. The only time vet makes a difference is at the end of the game when both teams are down to their last units and actually that's a pretty rare situation nowadays.

Really bad example...

Vet 3 perishing can rape a tiger

There is a situation where vet counts..


Vetted british blob > vetted gren blob tbh.

[shockcoil]

Then don't use your tiger against the vet 3 pershing. Use your paks. You don't have to engage you know. The only time vet matters is at end game when you're forced to engage because you don't have any other units

[Malevolence]

Or, you know, every time you're at popcap and the other team brings on a unit where you, once again, realistically must engage with what is on the field (or else sacrafice using the unit by taking it off to bring on a "better" counter).

[Demon767]

You know what, im so sick of hearing the same thing, Casual players have it bad bullcrap. Casual should stop trying to ruin EIR for the dedicated players. There is no point in lowering any buffs or switching up the doctrine system to unlock T4's first because Casual players will always lose against dedicated players no matter if there companies have no buffs at all

If you get a casual who plays 1-3 games every 2 weeks, against a dedicated player who plays around 3 games atleast every 2 days, who has more experience in EIR? The dedicated player, and we all know, that to be good in EIR you need experience, you just cant come off the street and start owning everyone with your vanilla COH skills.

So how bout you casuals stop trying to ruin dedicated players fun, give them something to aim for thats what this mod is all about, building your company.

you can not even the field against dedicated players, you cannot balance any of this out.

Play with other casuals and not against dedicated players and think you will win. you obviously wont. not because buffs, but because they are infact 10x better than you in EIR.

[Smokaz]

In fact, EIRR Penetration against "Yo mama" is 99999x. Go EIRR regulars! Boo with the casuals!

[GrinningD]

Bit of a flame there Demon, way to attract more players to the mod 

In all honesty, and as a self professed EiRR n00b (who is very good at losing his horded vets...) some of the above ideas are quite tantalizing...

Once things calm down in my life I shall once again be a dedicated-player-in-training, but some of the ideas above and they could be a help for all of us, not just the casuals.

For example, the casual vs dedicated gameplay choices would give 1st timers a better time at the game, letting them try out the new style of play without getting horribly raped by dual vet 3 KTs with Hotchkiss support or similar. It could also allow dedicated players to try out new company layouts without having to get all the way to 8 only to find their choice T4 Doc to be utterly worthless or simply not suited to their tactics or their view of the company.

The 'T5' is also a very good idea, setting your company's theme. Doesn't have to be huge - each Faction's already has a good example; paras, commandos, rangers, storms and fals. Implement that on a wider scale, or give more variance to each doctrine (eg: paras or strafing run) and you could be on to a good thing.

Or not. I've only been here a few months and only trolling these last two, so what do I know?

~GeeDee

[Demon767]

Yes it is a flame.i was thinking about it last night at 5am after not being able to get sleep for 26hours. This issue could change EIR, and it bloody P's me off. That casuals think they have a say, thinking if they get so/so change it will make life better for them. you still have the same skillless players with t4 companies playing and skillfull players with t4 companies. nothing has changed, we could have no doctrine companies and the result will still be the same

My idea works, but casuals will still get owned even if they get to pick there fully tier 4 company against a dedicated player fully t4. so there is no point to my idea. its utterly useless as casuals will still get owned and it will take time away for much important matters like balancing, advertising etc.

So i say keep the dam 20game grind for the dedicated players, so they have something to strive for. and let me not mentioned the decline of the playerbase when all the doctrines were unlocked. it proves me point.

i dont know one new player who will look at this and think "is he talking to me?" and wouldnt play  

Let me highlight i am not talking about Noob advantages, and the possibility of better noob advantages in the future

[Mysthalin]

On the topic of "Vet = win"... Think about it this way. What are you more likely to retreat at the face of death? A vet 3 grenadier, or a vet 0 grenadier? Which one would you actually allow to die, should you deem it necessary? Retreat at 1 man when the squad had a few buffs, or fight 33 percent longer with a non-buffed squad? Vet gets you attached to your units.. It's not good for you - on the contrary.

[Silver1Wolf2]

I gotta laugh at people who go "screw casuals" , if you get what I want I'm bloody out cause I'm lucky to get 20 games in 3 months PER TOTAL, casual gaming is what I do because I got shit to do in life not hug the computer 24/7 for a new grand spanking unit of german steeled KT, its fun but between having to grind 3 motherfucking months for it and having to deal with people who actually live to screw with casuals like me well... to put it midly *blows EIRR installation out an airlock*

[Killer344]

Demon767 doesn't represent EiRR's staff.