M10

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[DeutscherStahl]

Impossible.  Everytime you issue a move order and there is something of higher priority in range, the M18 would auto-attack that target and you lose your target lock, meaning you will have to add the 1.5 second ready aim delay when you change back to your original target.  Not to mention the additional time it takes the turret to turn.

Fair enough that I am wrong about it slowing down rate of fire some. Still, what I'm saying is you RAPIDLY move and attack, time and time again. This means the turret will move back and forth as if it were indecisive, and the damn thing will still be moving. Even if it adds to the time to fire (wasn't aware of that) I still think that is superior to standing still.

http://www.xfire.com/video/22cd92/

http://www.xfire.com/video/22cd86/

When I tested the fix the half misfire looked far better.

Tests using only one sample are completely useless. It is true that the fix implemented did not look as bad in the video - but that's because you only tested once. I often see what was in the first video in game - because it eventually completely desyncs. It CAN go for several shots without desyncing, but it won't always.

[DeutscherStahl]

You can do everything can't you? :\

I can micro, yes. You don't become semi-pro in the RTS genre by lacking in micro.

Anyway besides the fact, the M10 has improved a lot, and its fine the way it is. Like all the other people have stated, don't over micro, the M10 has fairly decent range as well. Targeting priorities will always be in effect, it will target the vehicle that has the higher priority. It misfires a lot less and it still does amazing against other tanks because of its crazy penetration. I guess you've just been having bad luck.

Targeting priorities WILL be in effect, but the way that every tank in the game barring this one can use is move attack move attack which keeps it on a slow move (faster than stopped), ends up targeting the vehicle you want without an insane turret rotation time, and is better than sitting completely still to target.

Relic's target priorities screw me over when it comes to fighting multiple vehicles. I can overcome this with other vehicles, but if I try it with this tank I don't get to shoot for my effor.t

By decent range you mean 'the exact same range or lower of every other tank in the game barring flame-tanks and the PzIVIST'.

Strafing, peeping in and out of range from the sides, and popping in and out of shotblockers from sides are all tactics that help the M10 avoid taking hits, because it cannot afford to take hits with paper armour and 400 HP. The problem is doing any of these can increase the chances of a misfire, and if there are multiple vehicles and you wish to target a different one than the priority wants you to then you get screwed over by misfire tenfold.

[lionel23]

Actually the M10 outrangers all basic medium tanks (minus hezter with scopes) and is only out ranged by a KT and Panther (tanks have 40 I believe, m10 has like 42ish, and panthers got around 47; in comparison ATGs are 60).

I believe I got the right numbers off the top of my head, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[gamesguy2]

Actually the M10 outrangers all basic medium tanks (minus hezter with scopes) and is only out ranged by a KT and Panther (tanks have 40 I believe, m10 has like 42ish, and panthers got around 47; in comparison ATGs are 60).

I believe I got the right numbers off the top of my head, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

P4/sherman/stug/etc has 40 range, M10/M18 has 45, KT/Jagd has 45, panther has 47.5, ATG is 60.

[DeutscherStahl]

Hum, didn't realize it had 5 extra range. That's a huge 'whoops' on my part.

[bbsmith]

Most tanks have 40 range.
m10 and m18 = 45.
KT = 45
Panther = 47.5.

[jackmccrack]

Firefly = 55

[gamesguy2]

Fair enough that I am wrong about it slowing down rate of fire some. Still, what I'm saying is you RAPIDLY move and attack, time and time again. This means the turret will move back and forth as if it were indecisive, and the damn thing will still be moving. Even if it adds to the time to fire (wasn't aware of that) I still think that is superior to standing still.

That's a good way to die tbh.  You're moving at the speed of a KT with a 400 hp tank destroyer and you have the rate of fire of a panther.

Tests using only one sample are completely useless. It is true that the fix implemented did not look as bad in the video - but that's because you only tested once. I often see what was in the first video in game - because it eventually completely desyncs. It CAN go for several shots without desyncing, but it won't always.

The way coh works is you go through the exact same firing animation each time.  It's actually not possible to "further desync".   The unit will behave exactly the same way everytime.

[DeutscherStahl]

You're moving at the speed of a KT with a 400 hp tank destroyer and you have the rate of fire of a panther.

How is this better than (a) stopping or (b) moving, and targeting the wrong unit? Doing either a or b lets a low-health vehicle get away to repair. Doing what I do could get you that last shot off if not for misfire.

In addition, misfire is still a pain in the ass in two other situations I described - peeping in and out of range and from shotblockers, from a side angle where their turret will have to turn and by the time it does you can already be back out of range/behind a shotblocker.

The way coh works is you go through the exact same firing animation each time.  It's actually not possible to "further desync".   The unit will behave exactly the same way everytime.

The exception being the modified M10.... I have seen shells come out at all parts of the firing animation since the update to it, including 2 seconds away from when the firing animation showed a shot being fired and less than one second away from when the firing animation showed a shot being fired.

But let's say you're right, since you probably don't believe me and my word alone on the animation won't be enough to fix it. Why is it so important to keep it halfway sort of synced? You've already screwed over the realism part of it, why not just go all the way? There's no reason the M10 should EVER misfire if we're already willing to screw up the firing animation.

[lionel23]

The problem is that its the M10 itself that is the problem as designed by Relic and it is not easy to fix, hence why the 'half' fix was done.  It's one of the few tanks that has a bunch of reload modifiers (being windup and cooldown, I believe) that don't mesh well like every other tank in the game.

And what Relic had before wasn't exactly 'realistic' if I might add, since it would always misfire and just create a 'puff of smoke' and no shell coming out when P4s and their like were nailing them.  At least now it can somewhat reliably get a shot off, you forget that.

[DeutscherStahl]

Actually they CAN fix it, they're choosing not to because they're afraid the animation will screw up even further. I don't get what the point of that is, since the animation is already awfully unrealistic.

[lionel23]

Have you ever gone into the RGDs?  It's a complicated mess to fix that M10 due to so many files being referenced for it due to having additional modifiers and fields the other tanks don't get (as to what I've been told and kind of messed with looking into with Corsix).

If you think it's so easy, why don't you fix it yourself?  I think the animation is just fine currently, better than the musket smoke gun of before.

[DeutscherStahl]

The thing is they CAN do it, and that's not the reason they're providing for not doing it. Hard coding is hardly a reason not to code; I seriously doubt persistency was easy coding.

If you think it's so easy, why don't you fix it yourself?

Do you really need me to answer that question?

[Tymathee]

like said before, you seem to be the only person who is having issues with it. Your logic is, the way i play doesn't work with what it currently is, so you must change it to what i like.

I'm a big m-10 guy, even with the old mess up i'd run quite a few and i used to work around the bug and have few misfires, and now i get maybe 1 in a game instead of like 5 and i consistently get lots of kills. You do realize you can kite p4's with this baby. Jeep + m-10 = kite p4/stug so fun .

anyway, in the end, they're saying they aren't going to fix it so leave it alone, you can't convince them when 99% of the community is just fine with the way it is, so i'd suggest you leave the ranting alone.

[DeutscherStahl]

like said before, you seem to be the only person who is having issues with it. Your logic is, the way i play doesn't work with what it currently is, so you must change it to what i like.

The way I play? Microing well is not a playstyle, it's a skill. It improves the performance of everything in every single RTS game, with the SOLE exception of the M10 which is currently better off sitting still than moving. And giving that it's a 400hp tank that's penetrated by every weapon in the game with easy, it shouldn't be forced to sit still in enemy fire to work properly.

On top of this, I'm definitely not the ONLY PERSON EVER LOLOLOLOL. A couple of others have chimed in to agree with me, and one post indicated that misfires were only down to 20% of what they originally were - that is still FAR too many considering every misfire is essentially gamebreaking. Even one misfire means the difference between killing a PzIV and getting away to repair, and the PzIV killing an M10 and getting away to repair. Same thing with StuGs, weakened Panthers, Hetzers, etcetera.

Just because I'm the only one who has them extremely frequently doesn't mean it's only happening to me.

Just the fact it's even POSSIBLE is fucking ridiculous when we can fix it without harming anything else. The animation is already completely fucked up, you don't save anything by not changing it.

i consistently get lots of kills.

Yeah, so do I. My M10s can typically hit vet 2 in a single game because of the infantry they crush and the double PzIV kills a single one can pull in its lifespan. However, every single time I fail to kill a vehicle because of misfire because of a misfire, it has a huge impact on the match, and every time I lose an M10 altogether to misfire and the other vehicle gets to repair is a MASSIVE impact on the match. It doesn't have to be more than once a game, if it's an even match where by the end you'd both be low on remaining forces, this can be a gamebreaker. Of course, if you're stacking then it's not really a big deal because the game is easy anyways.

(ps I use the definition every game community besides this one has, ie. purposely having all good players against all worse players instead of mixing in good and average on each team)

[Tymathee]

gah whatever, they're not going to change it. you can rage all you want to. if you hit vet 2 with them every game,  you're obviously very good with them.

[DeutscherStahl]

yet a single misfire makes a huge difference

Hitting vet isn't much of a hard task, killing 2 PzIV and you're already at 20/25 xp needed. Kill one, use repair kit, kill second, crush some inf, good to go.

But, a misfire seriously screws up the ability to kill them and makes a huge difference.

[Illegal_Carrot]

I hardly use M10s in my US companies, but I still agree with Deutcher on this: the animation's already really wonky, why not just fix it all the way?
'Gameplay > Realism,' is a phrase that gets parroted often by both the community and the Dev team, so why all the resistance to what is literally a bug fix?
Gameplay can only be improved by this, and the only downside is more dead Axis tanks.

[Mysthalin]

Well, clearly deutcher is already experiencing a loss in gameplay experience due to the graphics being wonky after the half-window fix that's been done.
This half-window that was implemented already removed nearly all of the miss-fires that do happen, and further reducing this window would be pretty much pointless - it'd be like fixing something that's not broken. If we took out all of the wind-up, the animation would look even more wonky without actually achieving any further (noticeable) fix in miss-fire bugs.

I think the main reason why the devs do not actually want to remove the wind-up bug completely is in the hopes that the coding team can fix the M10 animation to match the current wind-up.
Now, hoping they will redo the entire animation is just laughable - but that's what they would have to do should they remove the wind-up completely. Keeping the wind-up at the half window all they have to do is modify the existing animation. That in itself is a daunting task, but it's a whole lot easier than making the animation from scratch.

[DeutscherStahl]

- it'd be like fixing something that's not broken.

It's cool that you don't equate bugs with broken, but the misfire bug is still here and pretty much everyone who uses M10s admits experiencing them since the update. Even if it's only once per game for them now, that's far from justifiable considering a single misfire makes the difference between a dead PzIV, and a dead M10. Combined with how this mod has repair kits, whichever one wins has a good chance of being completely healthy which is a HUGE asset to attrition.