Whatever happened to subtelty?

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[winisez]

The only way you can really balance cross-race, cross-doctrine buffs that I can see working out is by attaching a objective and numerical cost to them. Three elements: the base unit, the buff, and the cost. Without a cost present you lack the mediating value between the base platform and the buff.

why should someone realy want his T3,T4... if it did not buff his company at all, that it may buff units but you pay for it

that is nothing more like putting all your ressources in a small amount of risky units

like people don't like to get dual lmgs doctrine choice, investing all their munitions into few gren squads with 2xlmg and waste a doctrine choice/unlock

imo it would not make sense for me to get doctrine choices at all, i would rather play using vanilla units than putting all eggs in one basket

what u suggest are these doctrine choices that are in and really suck like e.g. terror assault

Its because of shit like carbines vs Heat Rounds, both buffs units for free, effectively making them more cost efficient. However Heat Rounds will effect maybe 5 tanks, if you go P4's, or 2 if you go for doubleTigers. Compare that to Carbines where all 28 or more of your rifle squads just became much better combat units. If you had to pay for these buffs to your units it would go a way's to reducing this discrepancy.

[Jazzhead]

The only way you can really balance cross-race, cross-doctrine buffs that I can see working out is by attaching a objective and numerical cost to them. Three elements: the base unit, the buff, and the cost. Without a cost present you lack the mediating value between the base platform and the buff.

why should someone realy want his T3,T4... if it did not buff his company at all, that it may buff units but you pay for it

that is nothing more like putting all your ressources in a small amount of risky units

like people don't like to get dual lmgs doctrine choice, investing all their munitions into few gren squads with 2xlmg and waste a doctrine choice/unlock

imo it would not make sense for me to get doctrine choices at all, i would rather play using vanilla units than putting all eggs in one basket

what u suggest are these doctrine choices that are in and really suck like e.g. terror assault

Its because of shit like carbines vs Heat Rounds, both buffs units for free, effectively making them more cost efficient. However Heat Rounds will effect maybe 5 tanks, if you go P4's, or 2 if you go for doubleTigers. Compare that to Carbines where all 28 or more of your rifle squads just became much better combat units. If you had to pay for these buffs to your units it would go a way's to reducing this discrepancy.

Agreed. Some t4s buff just a few units, while others buff practically a whole army. It would be fine it was more scaled, but this isnt always the case. Buffing every rifle will beat buffing a few tanks

[winisez]

*cough* heavy support *cough*

[CrazyWR]

lest you forget, old heavy support was hilariously broken.

[winisez]

I know it was and I dont want It back, it wasnt good for gameplay. However the current heavy support should be renamed Machine Gun Support, and made a T2-3.

[Tymathee]

I like the fact that a lot of T4's are highly different from the others. I dont want mirror abilities, it gets old, if im a tanker, i want tank buffs, i dotn care about the rest, if im an infantry, support, artillery, lv, etc i want buffs for what i like and what im good at.

like take infantry for an example, one t4 buffs support weapons and artillery the other anti tank and the other anti infantry, now u can go two t3's but u dont get the extra firepower vs infantry and tanks or the extra health and range with L&L, like me, im goin down the TR road, so most of my infantry will be AT based and my vehicles my ai, thats how i like to play same with wehr, and PE and my brits, thats my play style so i want T4's to fit my playstyle, please dont give me a weakened tank reapers that buffs my whole army or carbines that affects support and vehicles minimally along with rifles, no  if im a rifle guy, i want my rifles to rock!

[EIRRMod]

When I first started playing EIR doctrine abilites would genereally do one of 3 things. Increase a stat by a relatively small amount (ie 20%), Decrease the cost of a unit or give you an offmap.

There were relatively few Mickey Mouse abilities and those that were in were from the base CoH game ie FTFL/Blitzkrieg (with the notable exception of Subversion).

I personally prefer this type of gameplay, where your doctrines give you an edge, improve your playstyle or tactic. Even overpowered abilities like OBM and Tank Reapers, at least they were just enhancements to existing mechanics and you could instantly recognise what was going on.

There seems to be a trend towards adding brand new units/abilities and doctrines which are often bizzarre and completely change the way a doctrine/unit composition works from CoH.

Now I may be on my own here and people might love these new fantasy bits and pieces but I have to ask, wheres the subtelty?

Wow really?

Tank reapers +100% penetration, +70% damage.

Subversion.... Remove highest CALLIN from opponent.
Upgrade gave removal of *3* CALLINS!

MI - full map reveal

And I havent even gotten started....

[winisez]

lest you forget, old heavy support was hilariously broken.

not in comparison to some of the other broken t4's of the time. compared to our current ones it would be yes.

[BigDick]

what are you even talking about, it would still be good to unlock the doctrine's possibilities and buy whatever unit's you want OR like to play with OR think would be best otherwise, since it adds choice
....

Why playing a persistence mod where the goal is/"was" to make your army stronger through experience it gains, which results in doctrine selection that can be choosen and veterancy when it stays at the same power?

to follow your thinking veterancy should'nt be without a cost in this units to even it out

a vet3 rifle squad is significant better than a vet0 one you should pay for it e.g. 50 more MP to even it out

thats all bullshit and will destroy the goal of this mod and the part in what its better than OMG because it has actually doctrines in that buff your army and not just adding some new units or shit

when carbines are to good because a good working us infantry company can work with 25-30 rifles than the bonus should be lowered a bit

to say hey you grind up to this T4 to be able to upgrade some riflesquads to carbines for e.g. 60 mun each make no sense to keep playing a single company from the vanillas to the roxorz

i could rather create a new company and buy some bars

[CrazyWR]

lest you forget, old heavy support was hilariously broken.

not in comparison to some of the other broken t4's of the time. compared to our current ones it would be yes.

Debateable, but alright.

[CafeMilani]

we need faster balancing.

a team of 5(or more) balancers and mysthalin as the stat-changer (not balancer).

[Calstifer]

a team of 5(or more) balancers and mysthalin as the stat-changer (not balancer).

And in the meantime i shall turn a bunch of web handed nigerians into a crack sniper squad. Go!

[winisez]

Subtlety is overrated. big explosions are where its at now.

[Sach]

When I first started playing EIR doctrine abilites would genereally do one of 3 things. Increase a stat by a relatively small amount (ie 20%), Decrease the cost of a unit or give you an offmap.

There were relatively few Mickey Mouse abilities and those that were in were from the base CoH game ie FTFL/Blitzkrieg (with the notable exception of Subversion).

I personally prefer this type of gameplay, where your doctrines give you an edge, improve your playstyle or tactic. Even overpowered abilities like OBM and Tank Reapers, at least they were just enhancements to existing mechanics and you could instantly recognise what was going on.

There seems to be a trend towards adding brand new units/abilities and doctrines which are often bizzarre and completely change the way a doctrine/unit composition works from CoH.

Now I may be on my own here and people might love these new fantasy bits and pieces but I have to ask, wheres the subtelty?

Wow really?

Tank reapers +100% penetration, +70% damage.

Subversion.... Remove highest CALLIN from opponent.
Upgrade gave removal of *3* CALLINS!

MI - full map reveal

And I havent even gotten started....

I don't understand why people keep bringing up doctrine abilities that I acknowledge as examples  in my first post....

[Mysthalin]

Could you please give examples of actually subtle doctrine choises?

Fatherland Defense is pretty much the only thing that comes to mind for me - buffing every unit just slightly : and we still have that in.

You could also say Rocket Arty - but looking at the whole tree : you notice that it was nothing but an arty spam fest if you did go for that tree, throwing all subtelty out the window.

[chefarzt]

Operation Overlord. 45 sec inf buff + slighlty better tanks. Rest of the tree is basicly faster deployment.Inf buff not working adds extra subtelty

[EIRRMod]

I don't understand why people keep bringing up doctrine abilities that I acknowledge as examples  in my first post....

Yeah, I didnt read it

[Mysthalin]

Cheffie - Operation Overlord is a CURRENT ability, I was asking for an example of a subtle buff in the old doctrines ;p.

[chefarzt]

Who the fuck cares about old doctrines?
WEll heavy support then.

[Mysthalin]

Heavy support wasn't subtle - it was flat out retardation.