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Author Topic: [WM] Grenadier- The Force Supplement  (Read 10368 times)
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WriterX Offline
EIR Regular
Posts: 41


« on: July 03, 2010, 07:38:37 am »

Something like advice, or observations from my side. Be free to comment and/or proove me wrong.

I watched Grenadiers, as squads, their weaknesses and bonuses. The basic unupgraded Gren Squad is not much to behold, and in terms of combat effectiveness and logetivity copes much worse than any of the allied squads that do not rely as much on upgrades, and can use Healing Stations, while an unupgraded Gren Squad will be preety much hopeless without Healing Kits (if we think of non-Doctrine healing methods). Another problem with Grens is there relatively low squad member number, if one considers them as the "meat" of the force.

Now, in terms of "upgraded" effectiveness. Grens with Med-Kits and grenades become a solid "squad", capable of holding their ground, as long as they do not meet anything with upgraded weapons or any armored vehicle or especialy a tank. However, once they obtain LMGs or Schreks, they become very dangerous opponents on the field.

Still, despite their combat effectiveness at the moment of obtainings LMGs or Schreks, they are, what I consider, the "Above Average" Infantry squad. They hold at those moments either a better Anti-Infantry or Anti-Tank role, however, they do not become exceedingly good in their specific professions.

The reason for this is that although they can fight back, they are unable to surprise. They are not ABs, or Sturm-Grenadiers. They cannot organise ambushes, or perform outstanding offensive feats of striking at the enemy in their weakest point.

What they are however are perfect "threats" and "blockers", and in tight urban environemnts, or in rural areas full of cover and limited vision Grens with LMGs and Schreks are a bane of armor and infantry alike.

I did not see however, Grens being able to act alone, ever. Most maps being open, spaceous terrain, Grens are exposed to Sniper fire which cuts off 25% of their strength with each shot, upgraded shermans that can slaughter a a handful of Grens each time with a lucky shot.

Basing a force heavily on upgraded Grens is a poor way forward. Grens with Schreks need to be lucky to pull of a rear shot at enemy armor, unless said enemy for some reason does not notice the Grens. LMG Grens might be good at dealing damage to enemy infantry, but they are not outstanding in the offense.

Grenadiers are "Force Supplements". The Vitamin C of your force, kepping everything together. Grenadiers might no be the perfect Tank Hunters or Infantry Killers but they fit in nicely when combined with a number of other troops. They also have the important element of mobility, which stationary ATGs and Infantry-Killers do not have, and if you have to quickly shift something against a mob of Infantry or a Tank Grens might not be able to stop the enemy, but they might give you a moment or two to reallign the rest of your force.

A thing to consider whenever using Grens, a fully upgraded squad is expensive in terms of Manpower, and Munitions. Throwing them away in a gamble offensive, or using them as scouts will end most likely, in them being pinned and slaughtered by the enemie's infantry squad(s). Thanks to their Med Kits they will be able to survive long, as long as they are not exposed and under exceedingly heavy fire.

That is preety much all that comes to my mind at this point in time, I might add a bit more later.
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Hydro Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 242


« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2010, 08:33:10 am »

Actually unupgraded sherman with 75 mm cannon has better anti inf due to better splash. And that observation with some differences can be also for pgrens, but tank hunters haven't like SE or Luftwaffe any "lower class" infantry
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LeoPhone Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 0


« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2010, 09:23:49 am »

actually 76mm sherman used to be better vs inf than 75. now they are even.
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Killer344 Offline
The Inquisitor
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Posts: 6904



« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2010, 10:23:30 am »

Different, not better.
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If I get shot and it's a gay medic fixing me up, he's not gonna be fondling my balls while he does it. You can't patch a chest wound and suck a cock at the same time.
rifle87654 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1107


« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2010, 10:37:43 pm »

so use them in urban combat?
lmg 42 are for defensive i think
so "stalingrad" type?
urban attack/defence
find a position and shoot
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 10:39:57 pm by rifle87654 » Logged

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Does he have a problem?
Anyway he's hilarious.
MonthlyMayhem Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 164


« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2010, 11:45:11 pm »

Yeah LMGS are more used for defensive purposes. Can't move while shooting
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aka Maysauze/MrGamenWatch
Baine Offline
Steven Spielberg
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Posts: 3713


« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2010, 04:16:01 am »

Yeah LMGS are more used for defensive purposes. Can't move while shooting

Except for Terror ability.
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EliteGren Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6106


« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2010, 07:07:13 am »

The perfect Grenspam still works. For that you should go Terror and go down the Pervitin tree for maximum effectiveness and wtfpwn.

Terror fits the Grenspam, you get Geschutzwagens instead of Paks, which leave you more munitions for upgrades on your Grenadiers.

A professional Grenspammer always has the following equipment:

- Anti Sniper weapons (3 bikes or a Sniper of your own)
- Geschutzwagens
- Nebelwerfer
- A few volks for recrewing purposes - don't recrew with your grenadiers

The nebelwerfer is not neccessary, but it can be hard to break a good defense with just Grenadiers and nothing else. If you decide to get the Marksmanshot you should skip the nebel and get a mortar or two for smoke.

Once you got pervitin everything will be easier. Your Grenadiers can kill infantry when they're outnumbered and come out ontop, can sprint forward to kill support weapons with their +30% damage nades or just snipe a key MG gunner and move in. Patch 'n run medkits are a must for this strategy.
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i prefer to no u
Don't knock it til uve tried it bitchface, this isn't anything like salads version. Besides u said a semois conversion would never work, now look that's the most played map, ohgodwhy.jpg r u map lead
CommanderHolt Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 600


« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2010, 01:31:06 pm »

It also should be mentioned that Grenadiers are very good when garrisoned, as it turns their lack of numbers as a strength.

Since buildings often have a variable amount of windows in each side of them, your Grenadiers can often have more of the squad's firepower actually firing. (ie. a Building have 4 windows on a certain side, vanilla Grenadiers would continue at 100% Firepower while a vanilla Rifle squad would only have about 2/3 actually firing.)

It pretty much reinforces the defensive usage of this unit, but it can be used offensively if you can find a building to flank the enemy lines.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 01:33:52 pm by CommanderHolt » Logged
lionel23 Offline
Donator
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Posts: 1854


« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2010, 01:44:18 pm »

I still say they need weapon package options like Americans, such as double MP44s or something.

And I do find it funny how LMGs are more like a defensive weapon yet I'm totally not inclined to buy them with my defensive wehr company.
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Congratulations, dear sir...I must say, never before have I seen such precise gunnery displayed. - CrazyWR (on Leaderboard Howitzers)

CommanderHolt Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 600


« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2010, 01:54:37 pm »

I still say they need weapon package options like Americans, such as double MP44s or something.

And I do find it funny how LMGs are more like a defensive weapon yet I'm totally not inclined to buy them with my defensive wehr company.

Why so adverse to buying LMGs for your defensive company?
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Nimitz Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 149


« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2010, 01:54:48 pm »

The perfect Grenspam still works. For that you should go Terror and go down the Pervitin tree for maximum effectiveness and wtfpwn.

Terror fits the Grenspam, you get Geschutzwagens instead of Paks, which leave you more munitions for upgrades on your Grenadiers.

A professional Grenspammer always has the following equipment:

- Anti Sniper weapons (3 bikes or a Sniper of your own)
- Geschutzwagens
- Nebelwerfer

- A few volks for recrewing purposes - don't recrew with your grenadiers

The nebelwerfer is not neccessary, but it can be hard to break a good defense with just Grenadiers and nothing else. If you decide to get the Marksmanshot you should skip the nebel and get a mortar or two for smoke.

Once you got pervitin everything will be easier. Your Grenadiers can kill infantry when they're outnumbered and come out ontop, can sprint forward to kill support weapons with their +30% damage nades or just snipe a key MG gunner and move in. Patch 'n run medkits are a must for this strategy.
Disagree. I'm having great success without any nebelwerfers nor wagens (which suck btw, anyone who says otherwise doesn't play vs good US or brit players; mediocre damage with bad accuracy and slow turning speed = fail, just like the marder rlly).
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 01:56:26 pm by Nimitz » Logged
EliteGren Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6106


« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2010, 02:19:28 pm »

I could care less if you have success or not, it doesn't matter. I am stating the fact that the Gwagons perfectly fit Grenadierspam because you are not forced into getting any paks anymore.

Alternatively you could play KT or double Panthers, but those are alot more difficult to pull off. Just having a single Gwagon on the field with rapid fire and a scout is enough AT to keep your grens save from armor rushes.
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Jazzhead Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 236


« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2010, 02:27:02 pm »

I could care less if you have success or not, it doesn't matter. I am stating the fact that the Gwagons perfectly fit Grenadierspam because you are not forced into getting any paks anymore.

Alternatively you could play KT or double Panthers, but those are alot more difficult to pull off. Just having a single Gwagon on the field with rapid fire and a scout is enough AT to keep your grens save from armor rushes.

How does having 1 gwagon keep you safe? Even 2 m8s could wreck that. I hope you at least have some shrek support too
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EliteGren Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6106


« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2010, 02:37:06 pm »

Smart play. Mines, Goliaths, and something to block like a 50mm puma is enough. Schreck support against m8s? That's like bringing fausts against churchills.
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2010, 02:40:38 pm »

A 50mm puma is kind of another 8 popcap, though Tongue.
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lionel23 Offline
Donator
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Posts: 1854


« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2010, 03:31:15 pm »

I still say they need weapon package options like Americans, such as double MP44s or something.

And I do find it funny how LMGs are more like a defensive weapon yet I'm totally not inclined to buy them with my defensive wehr company.

Why so adverse to buying LMGs for your defensive company?

Because the whole doctrine doesn't really support them.  I get mad shreks though wiht pretty awesome accuracy and just use grenadier rifles to rapidly kill things with the accuracy modifiers.  It's like in my British company my sappers kill more guys quicker than my commando squad.  Talked to Bob about it and DPS wise while LMGs do a lot of dmg, they reload a lot while Gren rifles are also really good at long ranges while LMGs get fall-off at longer range, something along those lines.  Terror is the real 'LMG' company but I would kill for some decent assault weapon options that weren't KCH.
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fallensoldier7 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 667


« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2010, 04:41:29 pm »

I've always disliked the LMG.  The regular gren rifles are extremely effective and they can be fired on the move, not to mention all of the munitions you save for not getting LMGs.
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Atlanton Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 66


« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2010, 06:09:53 pm »

How effective are the action hero move-while-firing dual lmg grens at attacking?
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Rogulair Offline
EIR Regular
Posts: 2


« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2012, 10:48:27 pm »

LMG don't fire while move, or I failed to see doctrine ability that given this ?
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