Allies in General

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[Sach]

My allied ratio is marginally better than my axis one. But then I am a US player really and I don't play PE at all.

[CrazyWR]

it seems to me sx that you are incapable of learning to support your units or have more than 1 type of anti-tank on the field at once.  Personally I find the balance is pretty solid right now, so I think the problem is for you to l2p...

[HexaFighter]

In wondering why there are always more axis players around, i figured it must have something to do with the mystique of the german army.
Besides that, looking at all armies and doctrines i had the feeling AXIS has way more customization available.
I summed up the number of different upgrades (by upgrade i mean you need to spend additional ressources on the unit) for each army and doctrine with the available info i have, including the upgrades you get from doctrine abilities/advantages and came up with these numbers.

AXIS total of different units (including unlocks) :40
21 of these are doctrine unlocks (52%)
ALLIES total of different units (including unlocks) :45
31 of these are doctrine unlocks (68%)

AXIS total regular and unlocked upgrades/customization for units :73

this number is missing regular upgrades of the following units (but includes their unlocked upgrades for i could see them in the doctrine trees)

Stormtrooper
Stuh
Tiger
Flak88
Officer
Stuka
Geshutzwagen
Medic HT
King Tiger
FallSchirm
Luft infantry
Wirblewind/Flakwirling
Hummel
APE flammen
Panzer pioneers
Support Scout car
Bergtiger
Hetzer
Hotchkiss command
Jag


ALLIES total regular and unlocked upgrades/customization for units :49

this number is missing regular upgrades of the following units (but includes their unlocked upgrades for i could see them in the doctrine trees)

Rangers
Howi
Officer
Assault Rifle
Assault Engies
Pershing
T17
Calliope
AB
AB HMG
AB mortar
AB AT
AB sniper
AB rifle
AB medic
Mortar pit
Priest
Commandos
commando jeep
tetrach
commando HGM
commando mortar
commando piat
commando sniper
Churchill 4
kangaroo
17 pdr emplacement
bofor emplacement
chruchill 6
churchill AVRE
churchill flamer

if anyone can correct these numbers
otherwise i'll correct them as i find out regular upgrades of listed units
anyway so far 73 customization options for axis vs 49 says a lot already, maybe there needs to be a balance in cuztomization to make allies more attractive when creating companies

-Hexa

[Chubba]

Oh Look, Luftwafte Doctrine Posted! Oh boy, I hope they gave the FSJ some more survivability for one of the most vulnerable pool cost 9 elite infantry in the game!

>No T4 Elite Armour Grant for FSJ

Oh, I guess that's alright, I mean, at least they'll get some kind of health buff

>-15% IA in cover

Ah well, that's not bad. Certainly no easy company or even allied grit but at least I can still play with the new soldier armour luftwafte infantry

>No more soldier armour T4

G43's with Snipe?

>No more G43's with snipe

At least I can give my Luftwafte infantry G43's though right?

>G43 unlock for FSJ only.

What about that FSJ Sniper they had in the draft?

>How 'bout some droppable medkits instead of the floating medical box you used to have?

So you made the previous passive floating heal box into distributable, two use only med kits instead. Great. And the sniper?

>How 'bout a Flak88 at tier 3?

Wut.

>Tier 2 which only affects weapon capture crews
>Tier 4 which gives a load of buffs to a wide spread of units without adding anything really significant (not on the scale of Terror's elite armour for all support) because locked and loaded on the allied infantry tree is so popular right?
>No more Non-Drift Tier 3
>None of the really cool looking stuff in the draft
>No more FSJ Veterans
>I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE LUFTWAFTE EMPLACEMENTS AND THE WIRBLEWIND.
>HAHAHA, AIRBOURNE AND TERROR EQUIVALENT FOR PE? BITCH PLEASE. ENJOY PAYING 9 PP EVERYTIME THOSE AIRBOURNE RIFLES GUN DOWN THAT EXTRA FSJ YOU CAN AFFORD.

TL:DR - I hope you like Fortress Europe. Otherwise, enjoy the riflenades and panzerknacker support.

[lionel23]

Fals are a bad ass counter-assault infantry. Ambush and hold ground and rape allied infantry at medium range, the top tier for Fals is most excellent and I'm highly considering dropping my Defensive company for it.  Luft has always been my favorite PE tree and the variety of upgrades and doctrine options make them really attractive.  This is in stark contrast to my defensive where I don't really have anything super unique that I can field without negating something else (88, walking stuka, officers).  Wish there was some sort of different main line infantry replacement for this company like 4-man KCH or improved support teams.

Anyway I think both the Allied and Axis doctrines are pretty much fine, some give WAY more options than others (I choose you, airborne!) and just tweaks and minor balance needs to be made to bring some of the earlier doctrines on par with one another.  My 2 cents.

[CommanderHolt]

Well they seem to emphasized Falls as a defensive unit now. Through I still agree with Chubba that they don't seem to gain that much buffs as compared to the straight up stats buff as Airborne do.

[lionel23]

They're a very powerful unit, they rape allies at medium range, they will be in cover to get the ambush bonus, i personally find them one of the best axis 'doctrine' infantry in the game cause of that.  And their doctrines adds more accuracy = more rape and they are harder to hit in cover, which is something I use all the time with my ranger company (wish defensive had that apply when it WASN'T a building/trench cover though).

And it's not strictly defensive, it's more a reactionary/counter assault unit.  Bait the allies into it.  Oh what's that? A lone 50mm in a field? Let me fire-up rangers into.. wtf ambush argh!  I'll run back to medium range of this wall.. holy shit the FGs are raping me at medium range! I'll have to charge them and get hit the whole way or fall back.. damnit..

Great for setting traps and to fall back with a supposed 'lone' squad.  A great infantry unit I say.

[bbsmith]

+33% Accuracy is a pretty big buff when stacked on top of ambushes already existing 25%. For 5 seconds G43s will have 75% Accuracy against Infantry at long range.

[Kira]

it seems to me sx that you are incapable of learning to support your units or have more than 1 type of anti-tank on the field at once.

I wanted to produce a more thought through response to this post, but I had to interject here. It are comments like these which are extremely off base and hurtful to any productive commentary.

Europe in Ruins, like Company of Heroes itself, is all about combined arms, no one is disputing that. Beyond the elite allied infantry, there is no single unit type which can survive on its own against any opponent, yet this is not a topic about that.

As the exception which proves the rule, let’s look at far too often a debate. The m10 springs up on the balance forum an insane amount because it is never given the treatment that it truly deserves. Right when fruitful arguments are about to be delivered some overzealous player who believes they know the best tactics directly targets the original poster by saying that they just don’t know how to use combined arms and are bad players. These “constructive” comments about keeping a pak gun hidden in the backfield or having a tank and a panzershrek fielded at the same time serve only to hurt the original poster and limit discussion where it is really needed. In terms of actual weight and application to this specific argument, it is the equivalent of an allied player claiming panthers are too overpowered, only to be silenced by a response that they should have seen it coming and had 4 .57mm at guns waiting for it. Clearly that would have defeated the panther, and at times that may even be an appropriate response, but it has nothing to do with the balance of the unit!

Therefore, the argument about m10s being too good against infantry shouldn’t be an issue about combined arms. Though we all know that combined arms is a vital part of this game, the specific instance of an m10 crushing Knights Cross Holders has nothing to do with pak placement of whether or not you have an appropriate counter near, it is just, in its isolated area, a grossly overpowered situation in favor of the allies.

The m10 is interesting because it is the most obvious of the allies benefits and the entire reason this topic exists. There are other less utterly one sided situations, rifles and their suppression have been brought up a lot, which need addressing as well.

When examining these too, we must keep in mind not always to try and help the person noticing the one-sidedness, but instead decide if in that situation there is actual bias in favor one army or the other.

--Also, Snoop, quit being a douchebag. Not enough new players are on Europe of Ruins and beyond the steep learning curve, it is remarks like you have done in this topic which are a large factor in that--

[CommanderHolt]

I wasn't aware that Fallschrimjager Ambush bonuses lasted for 10 seconds, I thought it was only the first few shots, or was that changed in EiRR?

[lionel23]

+33% Accuracy is a pretty big buff when stacked on top of ambushes already existing 25%. For 5 seconds G43s will have 75% Accuracy against Infantry at long range.

Here here, like I said that 33% accuracy thing is a huge thing, great for fals! Overall I think the new doc for them did them.... *puts on cool shades*

GREAT JUSTICE!

And nope Commander, it is the first few seconds they come out (timed buff), not the 'first shot', which makes them excellent troops to gang rape squads who run into them!

[HexaFighter]

why are you talking about fallschirmagers 

[Mysthalin]

Kira - the reasoning as to why M10 crush is not being removed is far different from the one you cited. It may be the reasoning which comes up most in the boards - but it's not the one that is abided by(or even as much as noticed) the developers.

The simply reality is that it would provide a lot of abuse in the form of infantry being used as make-shift tank-traps against M10s.

[SX23]

Kira - the reasoning as to why M10 crush is not being removed is far different from the one you cited. It may be the reasoning which comes up most in the boards - but it's not the one that is abided by(or even as much as noticed) the developers.

The simply reality is that it would provide a lot of abuse in the form of infantry being used as make-shift tank-traps against M10s.

Is there a way to make infantry step ASIDE the m10, so they can't block it?

[lionel23]

I don't think that's possible, it's like the whole retreating infantry getting stuck on a tank and the tank pretty much has to stop to let the infantry pathfind around it otherwise it'll lock the tank up.

[Mysthalin]

There is - it's inbuilt into the game, SX. Do note the word "Abuse" though - all it takes is just giving orders for the infantry to keep moving - and you override the inbuilt scatter for infantry once a tank comes near.

[LeoPhone]

it is just like with your own inf. when your tank comes near, the inf just steps aside.

[Chubba]

Here here, like I said that 33% accuracy thing is a huge thing, great for fals! Overall I think the new doc for them did them.... *puts on cool shades*

GREAT JUSTICE!

Sure, 57& extra accuracy for the 10 seconds coming out of ambush will be great but that doesn't address the fact that,
1. They are still one of the most fragile pool value 9 elite infantry units in the game (KCH, even at three men let alone their 4 man counterparts as any allied player will tell you, are hard as fuck, Airbourne squads are so tough they can survive direct V1 hits, Rangers mix good survivability with great assault capacity, Commandos have 6 men and smoke)
2. The extra accuracy only comes in when they are ambushing, something which is unpredictable in its results even at the best of times (right click unit to focus fire and FSJ move out of cover, if you get unlucky with the volley of ambush shots you get unlucky, they have great killing capability when the recloak kicks in but if you are not lucky enough to get it, you must deal with what is basically a grenadier squad if you do not have FG42's)
3. Their old T4 was better
4. The other recent T4's are better (fuck, even the lacklustre Pervitin Pills gives a comparable accuracy boost on top of a significant damage boost, speed boost and can be used whenever, albeit on cooldown)

And on top of all that, a 33% accuracy boost in ambush? For a Doctrine Tree that is supposed to benefit Luftwafte, the most they get is a unit specific 33% accuracy bonus for 10 seconds? Really?

Unless that accuracy bonus also affects FSJ tankbusters, it's still incredibly lacking in terms of FSJ buffs that the other trees seem to provide in spades.

[CrazyWR]

I just want to insert my support for chubba's post about the luft doctrine here, the draft I saw was far better than the watered down crap they gave us.  Apparently Smokaz leaving = massively trashing luft...

[gamesguy2]

1. They're 7 pool and the cheapest elite infantry in the game in terms of resource cost.  

2. Ambush is much more frequent than a 160second cooldown ability that makes you take damage.

3. Their old T4 was OP.

4. The other T4 was even more OP, it made rifle training look like battle hardened.