[PE] Luftwaffe

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[Spartan_Marine88]

PQ - have in mind that BARs are more or less so a downgrade compared to a garand when fighting soldier armour .

But they rape HT's

[pqumsieh]

its only a 15% reduction damage isn't it. or is there another missing modifier?

PQ

[Mysthalin]

more like 0.4 recieved damage...

[AmPM]

Ok, doc abilities I think are the biggest issues within the doctrine, not going to discuss its lack of power vs other doctrines (AB for instance, or Armor, or Terror etc).

We're going to look at the doc abilities in Luft.

-Ostfront Vets, not really encouraged to use PG by anything, and once you have a t4 you should never use them. To get the full use of this doctrine ability you need to spend nearly as much MP as you would on an FJ squad. Also, the usefulness of the doctrine ability is rather....low.

-Quick Response, faster armored cars in my own territory. Really lacking again, something that you won't be using much in a doctrine that doesn't encourage the use of armored cars anyway, due to MP and MU going towards either AT, support weapons or your FJ.

-Improved Logistics, kinda of odd, sorta useful, not really a T3. +2 pop is minor, the MG on the HT is blah, and the range bonus to the same is meh, its useful sometimes, but not great. +1 medkit is also blah, you have to get a t3 unlock to even use this.

-Planned offensive, its just odd. Nice, but odd. Not really a T4 since nothing in it competes with other doctrines using the same units.

The biggest issue with the doctrine is that it tries to buff every single unit you can possibly buy. If there was even slightly more focus it would be really nice. I'm not saying like AB doctrine focus, but a bit more. Something to buff our infantry slightly, along with the ones that are not random junk would be pretty good. Again, not compared to current doctrines, which I agree are completely nuts.

[pqumsieh]

@ myst, wow if thats the case it explains why I couldn't do shit to his luft company. The irony is that people always complain that luft doesn't have "elite" infantry yet they are able to negate one of the main AI rifles the Americans have. Not to mention their soldier armour. I think we really need to take this into consideration for all further discussion regarding luft.

PQ

[Mysthalin]

That's just what soldier armour has against BARs. I've fought off two BAR airborne squads at medium range with my single panzergren squad behind heavy cover - it's really basic CoH knowledge. The only reason why you get BARs in vCoH against PE is because they rape the light vehicles and have suppression fire - not because they're any good against pzgrens.

[CrazyWR]

I already made a post almost exactly the same as that AMPM, and got told I was completely wrong and just confused.  Good luck though.

In this thread... http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=15826.0

[CrazyWR]

Anyways, I think the Falls tree is fine, but the other 2 trees need some serious reconsideration...

[Groundfire]

Fortress Europe tree is fine.

There are other units in luft than falls.

Having a tree that buffs 88, verling, wirblewind, and all other PE units with doom fort capabilities is completely fine

Planned offensive tree could be looked at, but tbh, im lookin in there and seeing stuff like Fall "covering fire", No acc. penaltied ISTs, no dmg reduction Slow on G43s and super sight panthers, that fix all the stupid niche weaknesses that PE has, and I dont think that the T4 is that bad, just "Spotting teams" and "Improved Logistics" should be better.

[EliteGren]

I disagree. Logistics could use a slight buff, but spotting teams is definitely fine. I don't like the T4 at all, it removes most penalties and doesn't really suck but it's just plain odd.

[Chubba]

There are other units in luft than falls.

And thus we come to the crux of the problem.

Yes, we get it. You are going in a 'new direction' with the doctrines in order to promote greater variety in companies in an attempt to do... something. That's fine, I can dig it. Variety is good, let's people build different companies and different builds to do whatever they feel like doing.

But at the same time, let's try and remember,

Some people play Tank Hunters just for the Jagdpanther.
Some people play Airbourne just for the Airbourne.
Some people play Blitz just for the Tiger.
Some people play Infantry because they fucking love riflemen with a passion (and possibly Howitzers).

Some people play luftwafte just for the Fallschirmjagers.

Strange, I know.

And if you are trying to promote the other units over fallschirmjagers (in the fallschirmjager doctrine, in ways that don't exactly tie into the luftwaffles theme) then why would you make such promotions so minor or mind baffling.

I'm not sure when we decided the gamey feel of EiR was bad but if the new luftwafte is a sign of things to come, count me among the worried.

[Mysthalin]

Indeed. I too am quite dissapointed by the new luftwaffe - especially since we already had a fun and great tree made by Elitegren.

[Groundfire]

This whole thread, all this stuff, is something you guys shouldve asked in the "Ask The Devs" Thread for Bob's interview....

[Mysthalin]

People didn't know this was going to be implemented back when your thread was relevant, really.

[Groundfire]

Luft was out for a good week or 2 before I got around to recording audio.

[Groundfire]

Im gonna quote a passage from the interview on doctrines from Bob.

The goal of the rework is to reduce the amount of doctrine abilities that buff the same unit, in hopes of promoting combined arms instead of just spamming a handful of units.

All that bitching about OP airborne, and ranger spam, super armor M10s, Infantry doctrine in general, Lightning war easy mode, all that is from multiple doctrines overbuffing 1-2 particular units, and EVERYONE bitches about it.

This upcoming doctrine rework and this philosophy of doctrine design is geared to rectify this. Luft is just the first to be done, but they are all going to be like this.

I thought we all wanted less spam. I dont think that Falls should be exempt from this. It was no fun having allied infantry melt from overbuffed Falls.

[EliteGren]

I've never heard of Lightning war easy mode crying, it's one of the most underused T4s in the game.

[Mysthalin]

Indeed.

Look at defensive and blitzkrieg. Two trees that are fun, concise and balanced.

And that's why I said RELEVANT - groundfire. The average atention span of the forumites is about 2 days or so.

[AmPM]

It's still going to be spamming, because certain units are far better than others for the cost. That changes nothing.

And it would be perfectly fine to have things that buff say, 5-6 different units that fit the theme of that doctrine. So yes, a tree buffing the defensive 88 + flakvierling etc is fine, but why have random buffs to units that serve no purpose in the doctrine.

As I said, buffing Luft, FJ, Marder/ATHT, 88, vierling, all make sense. They were all units the FJ used too. The captured support weapon buff is neat, but rarely usable.

Each doctrine should still follow a theme. Having Infantry doctrine buffing Shermans and M10's doesn't make sense either. At that point why not remove the doctrines, merge unit unlocks, and just have a PE Doctrine, Wehr Doctrine, American Doctrine and Brit Doctrine. Since everything buffs the same units.

Covering fire doesn't suppress for shit, in that games I have used it I have managed to suppress units on red cover only. The lowered damage for G43 being removed isn't nearly as epic as you might think, since the RoF increase when using Slow was removed. In fact, the only things in that T4 that make a significant difference are the cooldown on Sprint (if you have a ton of vet) and Panther Sight, which means I dont need a 1 pop cloaked Ketten to spot for it...woo...

It would be like Easy Company making AB Carbines slightly better when you are in cover...

This new thought process on doctrines is like playing an MMO where you can't customize for crap because everyone gets the same things no matter what class they choose.

[LeoPhone]

I've never heard of Lightning war easy mode crying, it's one of the most underused T4s in the game.

thats coz of the loss of sight when moving. even bikes lose sight.