Developer / Balance Advisors meeting

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[Two]

Thought this was a 1 post per person thread? Guess not.........

That's ironic ? Because if you make those bonus disapear, the game will loose all his interest...

People play this game to abuse OP? poppycock! Or they would be playing vcoh. People play this game for the callin style gameplay and also to have vet and doctrines but right now they are fucking stupid and completetly change the way factions/units are ment to be played/used.

[CrazyWR]

I just need my RCA and i'm happy..

I find it interesting that none of the wehr docs are considered OP, nor any of the Brit docs

me personally, I mostly play Americans and PE, so I can't really comment on Wehr or Brits, although the Wehr I have played doesn't seem OP, seems pretty well balanced.

[LeoPhone]

Thought this was a 1 post per person thread? Guess not.........

just because one person breaks the rule doesnt mean everyone has to.

[MittinsKittens]

Right, I've wanted to make a post in here so I will do this now while I got the time. I will admit, my come across as ally hate because mainly I only play Axis, I love them for all their worth and the Allies would never interest me....least as they stand now they won't, So I'm going to be a little biased . Less chit chat, I'm going to say what I want to say now...

Right, The most broken thing I see in the game so far, is the Airborne as a whole doctrine choice. If we took a standard army of each Doctrine, The most prone to blobbing in my opinion (and doing it effectively) is going to be the Airborne. It's one of the things that really killing the joy of the game for me, True, Some people don't blob and good on them for doing so, but there's a few people who get a group of 6 vet 3 and fire-up every and just own everything...
Even worse still for PE (which is the army I regularly play as) which lack a proper way to suppress (which I will get onto later) the blob so Airborne can so easily face-roll them. Also, the fact they can get AB medics is killer, since its just encourages Blobbing, just run around until you start loads of damage, Fire-Up, run away to your medic and heal up.
Like I said, really kills the fun for me. What is even more annoying about this, If you try and get lazy and just blob back (since its annoying have to do some really hardcore microing when all they are doing is select all and right clicking for great justice), you're asking for a bombing run if your lucky, a strafing run if they really want you dead, True I shouldn't be blobbing, but we are all prone to laziness...
So in my eyes, AB need a look at...

Second point I like to get at, Is it possible that PE can get some MGs?
I find that PE the fact they don't have an MG, or more precisely, a good suppression unit (Half Track MIGHT do the job, but thats fuel in a fuel dependent army). For crying out loud, US can do it with bars so why can't have the PE receive some suppression love. I'm not even expecting an replica of the mg, I be happy if it did less damage and a little less suppression, but as long as I can some sure fire way of knowing that if they try and walk towards me with inf they are asking to get pinned.
And how to implicant it, well, the perfect way for me would be to make it a standard unit, but if you Dev's don't like the idea of that, How about MAYBE bringing back the reinforcement packages that you guys had in the mod at one point in EiR's Life, Not as extreme as including Falls/other elites and tanks in the packages, but simple things that makes to be in the other allies armys.
Like, Make it have so PE can choose one of the following, MG, Sniper OR Pak (for example). That's a really quick example. Allows for some more kind of customising without game breaking the armies like before, (Like Blitz Companies with Falls and Fall Companies with Stormtroopers) and allows you to have stuff that you want/need to make your army function better..

Another Point I want to make while I'm talking about this stuff, Is it possible to try and remove Engine damaging things while at Full/Green life unless its design is made to disable for X amount of time...Seriously.
I'm sorry, but there is nothing more annoying then having a quick lax in micro and having an US squad throwing off a sticky and doing hardly any damage but engine damaging a Fresh Panther or IST on the field. So I know got a seriously crippled tank that I either waste a full repair to deal with the engine damage, or watch it walk around on crutches and generally seriously having to baby sit it so it doesn't get into a situation where its lack of speed can help me get out of :<
But, I don't want this to only apply to Axis tanks, I believe in fairness, so I would rather have it so engine damage isn't possible at green for ALL tanks, unless its a mine or just down for X amount of time.
OR, maybe only have it so that engine damage repairs itself after a little while, or allow Engine Repair packs to be buyable on the tanks for a couple muntions (So you have your Repair Kit, and then 1-2 uses of Engine Damage repair). Little idea that might work, specially since in a mod like this, Engine damage is the reason for so MANY tanks dying :<

Another thing that looks needs looking at is M10's. I don't know why it is but for some weird reason there seems like an INSANE amount of M10's since I've come back to the mod, Maybe someone would like to PM me the reason, but yeah, It seems like a game breaking of M10's can be fielded and I can never seem to have enough AT to deal with ALL of them and if I find a way to do then my AI starts suffering because I have stripped my army of its AI...
But I don't really know enough about this subject to know where the problem comes from, but all I'm seeing is loads of M10's, So I'm going to touch on this subject.

Another thing that could be look at, Button, The reason why I hate playing Brits. The ability to basically HOLD and make it unable to attack back is a bit extreme, In my opinion, It should either extremely slow the tank down and allow free use of its turret to allow it to defend itself, or disable its Turret and allow it to run away, Don't mind the removal of LoS since its shooting vision slits so thats understandable.
But how it is, Its just a seriously big dick move, since well, 2 seconds later they are going to arty it and make it lose 3/4'ers of its life or have more AT then you can deal with shooting at it...

That's all the ones I can kind of think of for now, I'm hoping this was the sort of thing you was asking for? if not...I've just wasted 30~mins of typing all this up
If I think of any more, I shall edit this post so I don't break the 1 post per person rule.
Also, I hope you take these into consideration, and if you don't, hope you had fun at least reading them ^^
Also, People, Feel free to break all these down and tell me how stupid they are if you can prove to me that I'm completely wrong :3

But yeah, Peace Out...

[Groundfire]

Has the time for this meeting been decided?

[FailHammer]

M10s, AB, fixstick and nerfstick respectively

SE is fine, just cause its popular and the only exciting PE choice doesnt mean its OP. fire = dont fucking blob

Discourage blobbing

encourage combined arms

discourage spamming one type of unit

Docs and vet maybe smaller bonuses

Allow vet to die easier, tired of seeing vetwhoreblobtime


PS. Mittens you can upgrade scout cars w mg42 like deal.

[NightRain]

M10 Tank Destroyers should finally recieve the price increase now that the only thing that kept them so cheap (Missfire) is gone.

Honestly this unit becomes IS the best tank destroyer in the game so it has no reason to be so cheap. Its not weak in all honesty and can tackle both infantry and heavy tanks.

2x M10s is the deadliest AT combo one ever needs. Tiger? Done. KT? Done. Panther? Done. P4? Done.

For 600 manpowers and 220 fuel you can defeat every tank. "That's its task QQ" yes it sure is but that still doesn't allow it to be so cheap now does it? 300 Manpower and 160 fuel its not much, its easy to carry 9x M10 companies and its low risk too. In short M10 needs to come up in price so it won't be a suicide unit no more that can be send to die without risking anything.


Mobile Artillery also has to come down in price OR Immobile Artillery has to go UP in price to balance their costs out. So far I've seen faaaaar too much arty per game. Artillery just is simply too cheap- except 25Pdr, it has short range so it needs no nerfs. (RCA 25Pdr should be more expensive but has range increase in it aka 2x Different 25Pdrs)

[AmPM]

M10 needs a price increase, its not overbuffed by Armor, it's just way too good to begin with. Most efficient armor destroyer in game, costs less than m18's, can fulfill an Anti Infantry role through tread squishing.

Luft doctrine is just bad in a few ways.

-Quick Response is terribad
-Hauptmann's Tricks only really applies to buildings and is bad
-Planned Offensive is terribad, the handheld weapon buffs are good, the rest is trash. Does nothing useful at all other than the FG42, Sprint and G43 buffs.
-Monte Cassino, less powerful than most other doctrines T4's and only usable in cover...the free FG42 on LW Infantry would be cool if they could ambush, but since they can't get that t3 and a t4...

I know you want less super buffed units, but that can be done just as easily by watching which stats are buffed (what special person though extra HP on AB was a good idea) as well as how much they are buffed. Doctrines with no synergy are boring and dry. Luft being a prime example. The only thing fun about it is laughing about how bad it is before game and seeing if I can beat people with it.

AB needs to be toned down. The T4's are all way too good compared to any other doctrine.

Terror/Blitz/SE/Infantry all seem reasonable. Luft, TD, RE, Mando's could use a little boost.

[Smokaz]

M10 needs a price increase, its not overbuffed by Armor, it's just way too good to begin with. Most efficient armor destroyer in game, costs less than m18's, can fulfill an Anti Infantry role through tread squishing.

Luft doctrine is just bad in a few ways.

-Quick Response is terribad
-Hauptmann's Tricks only really applies to buildings and is bad
-Planned Offensive is terribad, the handheld weapon buffs are good, the rest is trash. Does nothing useful at all other than the FG42, Sprint and G43 buffs.
-Monte Cassino, less powerful than most other doctrines T4's and only usable in cover...the free FG42 on LW Infantry would be cool if they could ambush, but since they can't get that t3 and a t4...

I know you want less super buffed units, but that can be done just as easily by watching which stats are buffed (what special person though extra HP on AB was a good idea) as well as how much they are buffed. Doctrines with no synergy are boring and dry. Luft being a prime example. The only thing fun about it is laughing about how bad it is before game and seeing if I can beat people with it.

AB needs to be toned down. The T4's are all way too good compared to any other doctrine.

Terror/Blitz/SE/Infantry all seem reasonable. Luft, TD, RE, Mando's could use a little boost.

Really sad to hear people hating on luft this was going to be so good a doctrine,... me and elitegren had a very nice draft that for the longest time was more or lesss accepted internally and then at the last minute it was butchered by the rgd coders

[Mysthalin]

Sad? Maybe.
Unexpected? Not by a longshot.

[Groundfire]

Think ill throw in my 2 cents.

Doctrines:

I got no problem with the design path we are choosing to go down, (not overbuffing units) but if we are going to change the system, then the doctrine trees need to be strongly "themed" and based off of that theme.

We dont need doctrines that buff 1 unit from T1-T4, but if the tree is supposed to be themed then it better be very defined.

We dont need trees like Luft "Superior Planning" because it is far too ambiguous.

Also, I would prefer "cool abilities" as opposed to straight stat buffs because I think that this would benefit "themed" doctrine trees more, and stat buffs should be delegated to T4s.

I also think that dual T3 companies arnt utilized enough. T3s need to be thought out in depth to have deep synergy if your forgoing T4 stat buffs.

This includes Top T3s and bottom T3s as well. Going off some conversations I had with the devs, I fully support the idea that Top T3s should change the nature of bottom T3 abilities to have them better synergize with the "theme" of your chosen tree. Not just have it be a "clickable" ability.

<snip> dont need that

Balance:

-M10 could go up 50 MP and 10 ish fuel
-T17 phosphorus round should be brought back but with reduced effects. (no stun)
-Fire-up cooldowns should not get reduced by vet or doctrine bonuses.
-AB medic is too good. I like the idea OMG has with medics handing out medkits. Triage center type healing should
       be delegated to 1 doctrine per army. Right now, US has 2.

Healing:
To go off of the AB medic, i think a good direction to go in would be to have standardized healing types, 1 per doctrine.

Triage type healing, Medkit type healing, and Ambulance type healing.
Personally, I think we should take the terror ambulance and move that to blitz, b/c it feels much more "blitzy" and enhance terror's medkits with doctrine abilities and "luftwaffe supply crate" type abilities; you can drop a supply box, or have battlefield medics hand out medpacks on a cooldown.

The doctrine with the weakest infantry, defensive themed, etc. should have powerful stationary healing.

The doctrine that has inf type shock troop units get the medkits to heal on the go

The doctrine that is focused on rapid vehicle movement, tanks, etc. get ambulances.

Game Modes:

Atk/Def - remove the pop bonus, it is too small to field anything significant, or upgrade your start.
Instead, give the attacking players a 1 time "howi barrage" type arty ability, with lower than average damage to enemy units, but high dmg vs defensive emplacments, tank traps, bunkers, emplacements, wire, mines, etc.

This would allow the atkers to blow open a hole in the defenses and exploit the gap, forcing more of a response from defenders, allowing for distractions, feigned attacks on the line, etc.

The way games are selected now, this is not needed, but for when the warmap gets in, there will be situations where players know they shall be defending before hand and will gear their companies for it.

A preliminary arty strike will help offset the difficulty it would take to penetrate dedicated defensive companies that are designed for defense.


Anything else I can think of is already being planned in future reworks.

[AmPM]

AB Medic should be turned into something like the Luftwaffe crates, he just calls them down on a cooldown.

[Smokaz]

Balance advisors need to take on a larger role. If the criteria for doctrines changes, everyone should be aware. Coordination between devs and players could be better on this.

What you're describing here is members other than the dev team taking part in decisions of design, ground.

Its extremely tempting to comment upon the 'encouragement' received pertaining activities this quote describes. Let's just say, have you ever noticed what happens when you try to fly a recon plane over 10 wirbelwinds, 10 flakvierlings and a angry man with a bb-gun?

I hope your post will be read by the right eyes

[Groundfire]

Balance advisors are dedicated EIR players, are they not?

My train of thought was that the devs come out saying "this is what we need, go brainstorm guys"

and the balance advisors come up with ideas like a think tank.

I thought we had a problem with this type of colaboration? Hence why your luft workup was rejected. (obviously cant see the boards, just going by conversations ive had)

If not, then ill remove that section.

[AmPM]

I don't shoot down all ideas, just the bad ones. Usually its because the change is a kneejerk reaction to a problem that isn't thought out. =)

Anyway, I would like too see community input at least looked at seriously instead of the same old "We don't play anymore, but this is what changes we think should be made" response.

[Smokaz]

Balance advisors are dedicated EIR players, are they not?

My train of thought was that the devs come out saying "this is what we need, go brainstorm guys"

and the balance advisors come up with ideas like a think tank.

I thought we had a problem with this type of colaboration? Hence why your luft workup was rejected. (obviously cant see the boards, just going by conversations ive had)

If not, then ill remove that section.

Look thats a-ok. Let's forget about that for a post or two and instead read this fictive ventrilo discussion/chat freely constructed from nobody in specific's experiences of how design decisions are made

devguy: Ok Smokaz since DrunkAFKDEV just made up the first draft while intoxicicated on vent and then went on a FPS hiatus i need to do this, and i need YOU to help me
devguy: okay i need a t3 t4 t3
Smokaz: wait... the rest is done?
devguy: yeah we did it me and corruptdev to stop incompetentangrydev's draft from being used
devguy: ok so the t2
Smokaz: hey waht about xyz = WIN
devguy: nah thats retarded
Smokaz: its not that bad guy2 and alwayswinperson33 said its pretty good
devguy: its not in the doctrine guidelines
Smokaz: but all the other doctrines are raped just the same way and this *interrupted*
devguy: quick! need a idea for a t2
Smokaz: ok what about xyx = WIN
devguy: no thats retarded
Smokaz: but hey we had a discussion weeks back aabout what people wanted
devguy: its still retarded
Smokaz: and look at this poll, 77% of all that voted thought this would be a nice addition
devguy: no no what we'll do is like do this stuff that i have already put in the RGD's and patched in 2 patches ago without notifying anyone
Smokaz: isnt that supposed to be discussed and given a go before its put in
devguy: nah cause bribedsinglemomguydev said i can do whatever i want and OldandTiredOfTheGameDEV says its not his area
Smokaz: but dev4$$$ said this had totally top priority and was going to be done properly
devguy: nah thats just a bunch of talk, say I'm gonna use everything else you suggested and sew it together into this obnoxious monster
devguy: and there we go all evidence deleted
devguy: you there man?
devguy: hello?

[Groundfire]

X_X

[shockcoil]

This devguy seems trustworthy to me

[Mysthalin]

Smokaz's chatlog would be funny.. If it weren't true.. Sad.

[Ununoctium]

Well when will you remember the Devs don't get paid, and dedicate extra time for this. If we had mircrotransactions maybe this would get them motivated. you get money for your work now!