SIR (Starcraft in Ruins)

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[Demon767]

Why all the hate for Starcraft?  It's obviously not as up-to-date as CoH is (it came out.. what.. 10 years ago?) but it is arguably one of the most balanced and popular games in the world.  In Korea there are entire TV stations dedicated to JUST Starcraft.  Where's my CoH TV station??  People get PAID to play pro Starcraft.  In Korea, those Starcraft professional players (Bisu, Jaedong, Flash to name a few) are the equivalent to basketball players in the US.  Let's take a top CoH player: Deadbolt.  Who's he sponsored by?  How many people regularly watch his games on TV?

I'm not saying that Starcraft is better than CoH.  There's no comparison in such a wide time frame, but just cause Starcraft is older doesn't mean it's worse.  I love CoH (been playing it for almost 4 years) but bottomline is it will never be as balanced as Starcraft is, and for some of us balance is what makes the game fun because when a game is completely balanced, skill and cunning is what wins games, not finding the overpowered combination.

thats just sad LOL

nahh i hate sc because it was crap. everything about it i didnt like

[Akranadas]

Why all the hate for Starcraft?  It's obviously not as up-to-date as CoH is (it came out.. what.. 10 years ago?) but it is arguably one of the most balanced and popular games in the world.  In Korea there are entire TV stations dedicated to JUST Starcraft.  Where's my CoH TV station??  People get PAID to play pro Starcraft.  In Korea, those Starcraft professional players (Bisu, Jaedong, Flash to name a few) are the equivalent to basketball players in the US.  Let's take a top CoH player: Deadbolt.  Who's he sponsored by?  How many people regularly watch his games on TV?

I'm not saying that Starcraft is better than CoH.  There's no comparison in such a wide time frame, but just cause Starcraft is older doesn't mean it's worse.  I love CoH (been playing it for almost 4 years) but bottomline is it will never be as balanced as Starcraft is, and for some of us balance is what makes the game fun because when a game is completely balanced, skill and cunning is what wins games, not finding the overpowered combination.

It's not that we hate starcraft, it's just stuck in the past in terms of gameplay. Starcraft is effectively the same game as it was 10 years ago. Company of Heroes is considerably more complex and more advanced then Starcraft. No one cares about the esports aspect of it.

Starcraft esports in South Koren is full of cheats and match fixing; it's hardly truly competitive http://au.pc.gamespy.com/pc/starcraft/1083411p1.html

[Mysthalin]

Demon : you just completely confirmed the whole "hate" thing. You just said you dislike it and gave no reason why. Akra's response was much better.


Honestly, I don't think we can complain that Starcraft(note, not SC2) hasn't advanced. I mean, what game have you seen to change drastically from it's original release in terms of gameplay(ignoring mods such as EiR for CoH).
Yes - we can complain that SC2 is basically the exact same thing as SC, just with moar bloom... But Blizzard did indeed want to keep it at the "retro" gaming style. And for some people - this is actually a plus, rather than a minus. Even if we, CoH players, find the game to be very simple, it doesn't neccessarily mean the game is flat out bad. It just doesn't appeal to us.

[Demon767]

what are you talking about myst? i am a hater. i hated the game. my reason is cuz i didnt like it. do i really have to always be analytical and give reasons why? i cbf and its not like im trying to convince people that its a shit game that is bad. i said i hate the game.

[Akranadas]

The only real good thing coming out of Starcraft 2 is the map editor.

[Demon767]

 whole furom is full with drama queens

[Mysthalin]

Demon - you can be a hater, but you shouldn't call people sad or whatever just because they happen to like the game. That's just falling to a low level.


And Akra - Starcraft always had the best map editor of all time. OF ALL TIME.

[salan]

Meh.. it was pretty basic, if you mean greatest because of basicness... then ya?

DOTA will be interesting atleast

[Demon767]

What i believed was sad is Koreans having TV shows about SC. TO me thats sad, my opinion.

[NightRain]

Actually Red Alert 95 had the best Map Editor of All times

[Draken]

Actually Red Alert 95 had the best Map Editor of All times

I don't think anything beats MoW editor in terms of user friendliness and options avabile.

You can test your mod map, or even play and edit it in same time.

I wish there was EiR like mod for it.

[Grundwaffe]

Hmm, starcraft today is only liked by thoose who used to play it when it first hit the market - Reason is how Akrandas explained.

And yeah, i don't mean to harass it either i just compared Starcraft 2 which didn't evolve to much.

[Guderian]

Lmao at this thread

starcraft one of the most deeply analyzed games with enormous amounts of builds and strategies

Gave a new meaning to macro and micro


It by far beats coh in complexity (Zomg cover system and destroyable walls)


Meanwhile why are you guys complaining over that it isn't changed much?

First off: The changes are HUGE (can't emphasize this enough) ranging from stats/units changes and mechanics like creep and warp in (huge game changing concepts)
Second: Every change to one of the most if not the most balanced game changes so much.
Like the vulture spider mine changed entirely TvP

And saying its barely competitive are you kidding me?
Even during sc2 beta there were tons of sponsored tournaments ranging from hdinvitational to day[9]'s king of the beta

Not to mention iccup
Starcraft shoutcasts being much more popular then nearly every other game

As well sporting one of the most epic campaigns both then and probably now

And last as said probably the most powerful editor to date

[Draken]

It changes to CS 1.6 vs CSS thread, always ends in flamewars.

[Akranadas]

It by far beats coh in complexity (Zomg cover system and destroyable walls)

You think that is the only complexity CoH carries? What about Rear/Front Armour, Suppression, critical hits, shot blocking, trajectory based weapons.

All those 'new' huge game changing concepts you listed about starcraft have been in plenty of other RTS games from the past decade. What Starcraft (and Blizzard) are good at is taking what works and adding it to their games. They don't make ground breaking games, they make safe games and copy ideas from companies that have proved it works. Nothing Blizzard has done size the Lost Vikings is innovative from a design principle.

[Grundwaffe]

It changes to CS 1.6 vs CSS thread, always ends in flamewars.

But thats good, everybody needs to let their "bitch" part out.

[Ununoctium]

When I read "Starcraft in Ruins" I was vaguely hoping for an "I hate blizzard" thread.

Yay!

[Malevolence]

You think that is the only complexity CoH carries? What about Rear/Front Armour, Suppression, critical hits, shot blocking, trajectory based weapons.

A game that contains no macro beyond point capture had better have very complex micro or it would be incredibly dull.


You guys can hide behind "CoH is teh advanced!" all you want, but when it comes to complexity it pales in comparison. No other game I've played has anywhere near the depth that Starcraft or Starcraft 2 do, full stop.

It's just so EASY to play CoH in comparison because there's so much less to do. The micro isn't considerably more complex, it just has more random variables to consider. What does cover do for gameplay that makes it advanced or complex? You just put dudes in it to make them take less damage. That's not complicated, it's an anti-damage field around a piece of terrain. SC2 has that, it's call guardian shield, except instead of around terrain it's around a unit, so really it's more complex because you can move it around.

What's complicated about random hit chances or penetration chances? Nothing. You can just lose a fight for no reason besides random number generator happens. It makes the game exciting to watch, sure, and it helps keep the gameplay fresh, especially at mid-level, but it makes it terribly unfair and unsuited to competition and high level gameplay, not to mention frustrating. Rear armor is just a tiny little micro task to handle. Point your unit the right way. Oh yeah, big deal.

What is suppression? It's an AOE unit disabler. Starcraft has TONS of those. From SC2 alone there's vortex from the mothership, fungal growth from infestors, forcefields from sentries and emp from ghosts that function as special "AOE unit suppressors". Marauder concussive shells have the slowing effect, too, though that's not AOE.

Critical hits is complicated? Yes. Needlessly complicated? Also yes. The unit-killing feature shouldn't be assigned to a random number generator, that's totally retarded. "Oh sorry my unit is at 5% hp but he does not die because it's just not his time". What skill is that? That's professional roulette, totally pointless. Conditions on tanks like damaged engine or broken gun are cool, but ultimately while leading to replayability also discourage skill-based gameplay.

Shot blocking and trajectory based weapons? What about line of sight blocking? Oh that last one doesn't exist in CoH, I forgot.

Is it different than most RTS games? Certainly. Is it "more complicated"? In certain areas, but those areas all make it terrible for competition, and for a game whose main component beyond single player is designed to be player vs player, that just doesn't cut it. It's less complicated in other areas, for instance it has no line of sight blocking or the ability for units of infantry to bypass terrain obstacles like fences. Plus we can't even get started on comparing macro mechanics where CoH is ages behind in terms of complexity and depth by design.

All those 'new' huge game changing concepts you listed about starcraft have been in plenty of other RTS games from the past decade.

Guess what? Cover existed in SC1 in 1998. Hide a unit under a doodad or up a cliff and it takes an incoming fire accuracy modifier. Pre-formed squads existed in an RTS with Shogun: Total War in 2000. Suppression existed in Red Alert 1 in 1995 where when your infantry got shot they started crawling around. Armor facings have existed in games for well over a decade. You act like CoH innovates ANYTHING, but what it really does is

taking what works and adding it to their games. They don't make ground breaking games, they make safe games and copy ideas from companies that have proved it works.

and that's perfectly alright because everything has already been done as a concept, pretty much. But by treating it like it's "the most important thing" to insert creative new features you show a distinct lack of clarity in your picture of what is important in product design.


Bottom line is, Starcraft and Starcraft 2 have the most game depth of any games I've ever played. The skill cap is incredible, and yet the game remains very entertaining both to play and to watch. If people don't like it that's fine, personal taste will forever be fragmented or else it wouldn't be taste, but people need to give it a rest with their pointless arguments about what's "more complex" or "advanced" or "innovative", or how they "only play for fun" and "not to win" while they play the player vs player online matches whose entire point is to match and defeat another player.

And even if CoH IS "more advanced", you know what's the least advanced game ever? Chess. Every piece moves the same, both sides are the same with exception of first move and that can be made even by switching sides every game, and to top it all off it only has six different units! You know what's also one of the deepest, most strategic, most entertaining and popular games ever? Chess. Chess has no cover, no suppression, no armor facings, no hitpoints, no random number generators of any variety, and without a doubt it is and has been the most popular game on earth for centuries. Being complicated doesn't make you good, and CoH isn't even complicated because all of its innovative features already existed 5 to 10 years before it was made. CoH is a wonderful game, but it is not "better", and it's especially not "better" because of how complicated it is.

So cut it out.

[Akranadas]

lolstarcraft fanboi

of course you're going to nit pick everything I bring up. It's obvious that Starcraft is where your heart is.

[Ununoctium]

And even if CoH IS "more advanced", you know what's the least advanced game ever? Chess. Every piece moves the same, both sides are the same with exception of first move and that can be made even by switching sides every game, and to top it all off it only has six different units! You know what's also one of the deepest, most strategic, most entertaining and popular games ever? Chess. Chess has no cover, no suppression, no armor facings, no hitpoints, no random number generators of any variety, and without a doubt it is and has been the most popular game on earth for centuries. Being complicated doesn't make you good, and CoH isn't even complicated because all of its innovative features already existed 5 to 10 years before it was made. CoH is a wonderful game, but it is not "better", and it's especially not "better" because of how complicated it is.

Sir, I challenge you to chess and then CoH and then starcraft!
And then we will have a cup of tea, the most popular drink on earth, followed by soccer, the most popular sport.

I feel like such a conformist since I do all these things.

My nitpicky point is the resource system.
I love coh for it resources on the frontline.


(and lack of flying units) I don't know why but i love flying units and if a game has them i will inevitably build them to my own doom.