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Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
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Topic: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing (Read 10011 times)
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Smokaz
Honoured Member
Posts: 11418
Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
on:
October 13, 2010, 01:40:56 pm »
Make open/ "default" cover worse!
Its simply really. For those of you who ever browsed the now outdated and closed down cohstats, you might have checked out the explanation of cover modifiers.
The default cover is what you have when you are in the open.
One way to go about doing this, is to just increase the supression modifier to 1.25, perhaps received accuracy to 1.25. (its 1 - 1 in eirr and vcoh)
It would be fun to check out how this affected infantry in the open. I've always thought it was strange how unit's in the open didn't get "true" penalties, only red cover roads give those.
It's a fact that blobs spend the majority of their time traversing open cover
- a tactic that while punishable, usually makes for ugly and strategically simple gameplay.
I think it's a notion shared by many eirr players, that moving around in EIRR is not that dangerous even when you are taking fire from units sitting still in their own cover.
Alternatively, you could introduce accuracy bonuses from firing from cover. This could also make using cover more powerfuls, and blobs less.
«
Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 01:43:14 pm by Smokaz
»
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AmPM
Community Mapper
Posts: 7978
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #1 on:
October 13, 2010, 01:42:42 pm »
This is true, would require looking over some maps again though to make sure enough cover is in place to allow for gameplay. Might also warrant a reduction in cost of assault troops.
Would be fun to try for sure though.
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Smokaz
Honoured Member
Posts: 11418
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #2 on:
October 13, 2010, 01:45:05 pm »
Quote from: AmPM on October 13, 2010, 01:42:42 pm
This is true, would require looking over some maps again though to make sure enough cover is in place to allow for gameplay. Might also warrant a reduction in cost of assault troops.
Would be fun to try for sure though.
Even if all maps weren't perfect for the change - imo most maps got good cover- this would make the units able to construct cover more powerful.
Knowing our playerbase - it wouldn't slow down the game that much. But it would reduce the effiency of alot of illogical abilities, that rape in the open: like assault nade-type of abilities, fireup etc.
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AmPM
Community Mapper
Posts: 7978
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #3 on:
October 13, 2010, 01:46:42 pm »
Agreed, SMGs might need tweaking, but other than that not huge changes. Both HMGs would suppress really well.
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Hicks58
Development
Posts: 5343
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #4 on:
October 13, 2010, 01:47:31 pm »
Don't forget about Armour people...
AC's especially are going to become even bigger rape machines if such a change were made, so consider all the variables before diving into it. >.>
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Quote from: brn4meplz on November 05, 2012, 10:45:05 am
I mean I know Obama was the first one in EiR to get a card. and tbfh the Race card is pretty OP. but Romney has the K.K.K., those guys seem to camo anywhere. So OP units from both sides.
Quote from: Mysthalin on March 27, 2014, 04:57:09 pm
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Smokaz
Honoured Member
Posts: 11418
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #5 on:
October 13, 2010, 01:50:58 pm »
Oh lul hicks, people are going to try to find all kinds of holes in this to shoot it down, its how this forum works, we shoot at people:
Quote from: Hicks58 on October 13, 2010, 01:47:31 pm
Don't forget about Armour people...
AC's especially are going to become even bigger rape machines if such a change were made, so consider all the variables before diving into it. >.>
You seriously saying that either allies or axis would gain some undue advantage for one side, with a global buff? All 4 sides have something that rapes in the open: Ac, stag, m8, Puma.
The effect you are talking about would make the design of the maps mean more. Open areas wouldn't be the parties they are for lots of inf. It would be where tanks moved around - while infantry would stick to more closed off spaces or open areas with - DRUM DRUM DRUM - haystacks!!
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Illegal_Carrot
Global Moderator
Posts: 1068
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #6 on:
October 13, 2010, 01:51:47 pm »
Good idea, but but that suppression modifier won't mean jack when that blob uses Fire Up.
«
Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 01:53:55 pm by Illegal_Carrot
»
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Mysthalin
Tired King of Stats
Posts: 9028
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #7 on:
October 13, 2010, 01:52:39 pm »
It would also unintentionally reduce the effectiveness of units that DON'T run around in blobs - but have to traverse open cover to, for instance, take out an HMG position. Even if it would maintain the same overall balance of infantry - MGs would become disproportionately buffed.
How about, instead, we just take the pioblob modifier and change it into actually noticeable recieved accuracy/damage/suppression? Make it a low base rate of 1.05, and give each infantry unit an in-built rec. acc/dmg /sup modifier to counteract the flat rate if it's just the one squad walking about(that is, if it's impossible to make the blob modifier kick in only at a certain point).
It would mean that as base in ones - the units would retain their original strength, but their recieved damage would scale dramatically upwards the more units are blobbed.
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brn4meplz
Misinformation Officer
Posts: 6952
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #8 on:
October 13, 2010, 01:55:43 pm »
The best way to stop blobbing is just have everything use a Higher Incremental Accuracy modifier.
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Quote from: Unkn0wn on July 31, 2012, 03:50:15 am
Wow I think that was the nicest thing brn ever posted!
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Mysthalin
Tired King of Stats
Posts: 9028
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #9 on:
October 13, 2010, 01:57:27 pm »
True, but at some points - higher incremental accuracy just doesn't matter anymore(close range, for instance) - and can be offset by the sheer increase of DPS by adding another squad.
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Smokaz
Honoured Member
Posts: 11418
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #10 on:
October 13, 2010, 02:00:29 pm »
Quote from: Mysthalin on October 13, 2010, 01:57:27 pm
True, but at some points - higher incremental accuracy just doesn't matter anymore(close range, for instance) - and can be offset by the sheer increase of DPS by adding another squad.
Seems like it would have a isolated positive effect without raping much else
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Groundfire
EIRR community manager
EIR Veteran
Posts: 8511
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #11 on:
October 13, 2010, 02:03:05 pm »
Quote from: Mysthalin on October 13, 2010, 01:52:39 pm
It would also unintentionally reduce the effectiveness of units that DON'T run around in blobs - but have to traverse open cover to, for instance, take out an HMG position. Even if it would maintain the same overall balance of infantry - MGs would become disproportionately buffed.
How about, instead, we just take the pioblob modifier and change it into actually noticeable recieved accuracy/damage/suppression? Make it a low base rate of 1.05, and give each infantry unit an in-built rec. acc/dmg /sup modifier to counteract the flat rate if it's just the one squad walking about(that is, if it's impossible to make the blob modifier kick in only at a certain point).
It would mean that as base in ones - the units would retain their original strength, but their recieved damage would scale dramatically upwards the more units are blobbed.
I like mysthalin's idea.
This is the one we should experiment with. Turning all default cover into negative cover isnt the answer imo. MGs and splash weapons are disporportionatly buffed with no increased survivablilty to units belonging to players who do move their troops correctly.
Everyone gets punished, blob or no blob and supportweaps spam and stuff like ostwinds and ACs become too powerful. Bascially large spalsh, and high ROF weapons become too good.
Just make the anti-pio blob nerf apply to everyone and have it be noticable.
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Illegal_Carrot
Global Moderator
Posts: 1068
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #12 on:
October 13, 2010, 02:14:36 pm »
I think instead of going one or the other, a slight mix of both world work best. Give open cover 1.05 - 1.10 damage/suppression modifiers, and all units slight Pio modifiers, as well.
It'd encourage the use of cover more (in all units, not just blobs), and still fight blobbing very effectively.
Too much of one or the other, though, and you begin to punish single units.
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Mysthalin
Tired King of Stats
Posts: 9028
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #13 on:
October 13, 2010, 02:54:45 pm »
Thing is, open cover nerfing is also an indirect boost to some units unintentionally. For instance - G43s become overall more effective because they have slightly better modifiers vs green and garrison cover than other units. Encouraging cover-to-cover stand-off will make G43s overall a better unit.
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Illegal_Carrot
Global Moderator
Posts: 1068
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #14 on:
October 13, 2010, 04:40:04 pm »
Quote from: Mysthalin on October 13, 2010, 02:54:45 pm
Thing is, open cover nerfing is also an indirect boost to some units unintentionally. For instance - G43s become overall more effective because they have slightly better modifiers vs green and garrison cover than other units. Encouraging cover-to-cover stand-off will make G43s overall a better unit.
Ahh.. It's good to keep an eye on things like this, but I don't know how big of an issue it'd really be. The 5-10% extra damage in the open wouldn't be that alarming at all, just enough to better encourage the use of cover.
But really, given the choice between using cover and staying in the open, *any* player would stick their units in cover. It's not really even a factor, as those single units would be in cover anyways.
And again, it comes down to the fact that most blobs simply cannot even fit into proper cover, and that most blobbers don't use cover in the first place.
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Tymathee
Donator
Posts: 9741
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #15 on:
October 13, 2010, 06:05:39 pm »
Interesting.
the carbine gets 1.25 acc and 1.25 dmg vs infantry in open cover (this is AB gun)
and its the same for negative except the suppression is 1.5
and its the same thing for the hmg...so there's really no need to change, there's already a buff over 100% acc/dmg vs units in open.
but there's a default cover and if that's the cover that is always used when there's no shield, then yeah that's all 1.0, so maybe all default should be changed to open cover?
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Quote from: nikomas on October 04, 2012, 09:26:33 pm
"I want proof!"
"I have proof!"
"Whatever, I'm still right"
Dafuq man, don't ask for proof if you'll refuse it if it's not in your favor, logic fallacy for the bloody win.
puddin
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1701
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #16 on:
October 13, 2010, 06:29:47 pm »
So then support wepon spam will come back ....
if you take more dmg and or supression in open cover getting rid of the HMG will be that much harder...
So support spam will return... yay... oh yay... Because thats just as fun as seeing massive blobs... LEts creat 2 maginot lines with indirect fire and arty wars
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Puddin' spam
tm
Quote from: aeroblade56 on September 03, 2012, 04:46:14 pm
i cant really blame smokaz i mean playing against puddin is like trying to fight off breast cancer. You might win and do it and be a bad ass but you'll feel sick and mutilated forever.
Quote from: nikomas on September 04, 2012, 03:59:27 am
Puddin' spam
tm
is soulcrushing... what's hard to understand about that?
Illegal_Carrot
Global Moderator
Posts: 1068
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #17 on:
October 13, 2010, 06:32:59 pm »
Quote from: Tymathee on October 13, 2010, 06:05:39 pm
Open cover is what's used. IIRC, Default cover isn't actually used anywhere in the game.
«
Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 08:38:32 pm by Illegal_Carrot
»
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Spartan_Marine88
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4838
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #18 on:
October 13, 2010, 07:20:57 pm »
Quote from: puddin on October 13, 2010, 06:29:47 pm
So then support wepon spam will come back ....
Axis support spam IS back
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Quote from: Sachaztan on March 24, 2013, 03:49:43 pm
Yes that's me, the special snowflake.
AmPM
Community Mapper
Posts: 7978
Re: Radical idea to reduce the benefit of blobbing
«
Reply #19 on:
October 13, 2010, 07:22:21 pm »
Again, 4 HMGs is not support spam for a company...its normal.
2 Mortars is normal.
4 ATGs is low for allies, normal for axis.
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