PE non-doctrinal anti-tank capabilities.

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[Artekas]

(Fortress of text incoming!)
As the thread title says, I think that there could be an issue with the ability for PE to deal with enemy armour. It's generally far too fragile and costs too much - while not actually packing any sort of extra firepower or speed that would typically be associated with being more fragile and expensive than normal. The options are all basically glass spud launchers. I'm sure the situation is better for Tank Hunter players, but for only one doctrine to be viable in anti-tank is a bit silly. Let's examine PE's AT.

The Marder III is the primary anti-tank gun for PE, used in place of your typical AT guns. The problem? It costs 160 fuel instead of 110 munitions. Why? Because it's a vehicle. But being a vehicle doesn't give it anything really. It's just as fragile, if not more fragile, as an ATG, but to different things - while it doesn't have to worry about mortars and rifles, ATGs snipe it very well, infantry AT cripples it in seconds, and the very things that it is meant to kill can often kill it faster than it can kill them. In addition, infantry has to spend time firing at an ATG to really hurt it - one surprise shot from any of the things the Marder is weak to, and it's lost a third or fourth of its health. The other advantage that being a vehicle might give you is mobility - but it doesn't have a turret, it turns awfully slow, the firing cone is significantly smaller than an AT gun, and it's not that fast. This problem is compounded by the fact that in order for it to actually be capable of winning any fight with a tank, it must lockdown, making it immobile. If it doesn't lock down, almost every shot hits it (which is not the case with tanks firing at ATGs) and it doesn't penetrate enough to out attrition the enemy tank which is guaranteed to penetrate and kill it in 3-5 hits. Relevant statistics: in a head on battle, a Sherman 75mm will win 77% of the time, a Sherman 76mm will win 60% of the time, and an M10 will win 99% of the time. This is not factoring in circling or lockdown. Once it locks down, though, it's a very easy target for circling, even moreso than an ATG because of the basically non-existent firing arc. It has more range than most tanks but it can't fire while moving and just about every tank moves faster forwards than it can move backwards. Last thing: it can't be recrewed. It can be repaired but half of my Marders never get to be repaired because they just die so easily. Actual last thing: they take up 6 pop, not 4 pop.

Now let's look at the second option, which is basically a smaller Marder III: the 50mm AT Halftrack. It suffers from all of the problems of the Marder, but for some godawful reason costs 110 munitions AND 50 fuel. It has the same gun as the Wehrmacht's ATG, the 50mm PaK, except it has a much smaller firing cone. What advantages does it have over the PaK? It's a light vehicle. What disadvantages does it have? It's a light vehicle, it can't ambush, it has a small firing cone, and it costs 50 fuel more. In particular the main problem here is that the entire reason the Wehrmacht anti-tank gun is useful is the ambush - it has a very mediocre damage output and struggles to penetrate without ambush bonuses, plus being able to surprise the enemy is obviously useful. Why does the 50mm AT Halftrack cost 110 munitions?

Third option: Tank Busters. Those squads of basic infantry with a short-ranged Panzershrek that has 0.35 accuracy and a 12 second reload time, at long range, with simply average damage and good penetration. I've tried using them a lot, both in support of Marders and in groups of 2 or 3, but they don't cut it because they miss too much, fire too slowly, and get mowed down way too easily. It's also very easy to prevent them from shooting at close range by driving a vehicle into them, which makes the guy with the shrek just run around to avoid the vehicle forever. For what they do, they just take up too many mu - 120. While they are pretty cheap when it comes to manpower, half that of an ATG, they cost a bit more munitions than a PaK or 57mm. ATGs are far, far, far more cost efficient tank killers, even with their high MP cost.

Fourth option: Light AT Halftrack. This is hardly an anti-tank option so much as a little bit of support. It bears a fairly high cost with a useless gun, the only reason for buying them being the abilities. I've used them a lot and I find it hard to justify the cost, when the only thing it can really do is temporarily slow down one vehicle per fight at the most. It's also got focus fire but that seems to have been nerfed, as it misses infantry in the open roughly a third of the time speaking from experience. Nonetheless, I use them with my Marders because it allows my Marders to lock down and actually be able to fight.

Fifth option: Upgunned Hotchkiss. It functions a lot like an upgunned Puma. It's great at what it's meant for, killing light vehicles, but it takes up 8 pop and can't deal with tanks very well because of medium range and the fact it can't take hits back. As such, it doesn't fix the problem of dealing with actual tanks that I'm seeing. And it's not supposed to, so it can basically be ignored in regards to discussion about dealing with tanks.

And finally, the Panther. This 500 fuel 15 pop monstrosity... isn't really cost efficient for PE. I'd much rather have three Marders for anti-tank purposes. What the Panther does, though, is illustrate a point I want to make - all factions bar PE can spend both munitions and fuel for viable anti-tank. For example: the Wehrmacht can have PaKs, shreks, a PzIV, four StuGs, and a Panther for anti-tank because the secondary resources they use are different. All of PE's AT options bar the terribly inefficient Tankbusters use up fuel, so you are limited on the amount of anti-tank in your company. PE's AT options are a bit cheaper on manpower, but I can't even spend all my manpower (with just one bonus) with Scorched Earth because of supply limits, even though all 22-23 of my infantry squads have veteran sergeants.

In summary: The two things meant to be anti-tank guns cost too much and have too many disadvantages compared to said ATGs, panzershreks aren't enough to make up for this because they're just a mild annoyance to the enemy, two other options are meant to be support and light vehicle deterrents, and the final option simply costs too much. PE suffers from having a lack of anti-tank mobility (ironically) and cost-efficiency, with too much costing fuel and no real options costing only munitions.

Now, keep in mind I'm still new. I've played only 45 matches of EiRR, and you'd be joking if you considered yourself good at an RTS after 45 matches. I don't think that I have near enough experience to know with certainty if something might be imbalanced. I hope I'm wrong about the balance here, and I'm just not good enough to use PE well yet - I'm not saying all these things are fact, I'm simply challenging everyone to prove what I say wrong so I know how to better improve. I could make a post about this in strategy instead, asking for help, but with this way I can post my observations on statistics and experience and make comparisons with other units better, and get more detailed answers on why X thing is good enough not to need fixing.

[kwiatekkek]

upgunned  hotchkisses  are  great  at killing tanks.

try using  two .

[Artekas]

I have always used just one Hotchkiss at a time in support of other anti-tank, and that's actually the only anti-tank solution I haven't tried (pairs of Hotchkiss). Still, it takes up a lot of pop, and I'd like to see my other points about PE AT addressed.

[sheffer]

1. Marder is nice, its Armor Pool, not vehicle. dont use it like atg, dont move to tanks. Keep it behind a line and support by another at like all amis support atg by stiky, zook, or another atg.
2. 50mm is crap, no quetions. Its only advanteges under murder is 4 pop 4 support pool - good for start call, but nothing more. terrable acceleration, rotarion speed, too bad for its cost
3. Shreks squads are the best. Dont u forget that u get 3 rifles for their price? They can do with some inf, not with assault squads of course. Real man's choice dude!
4. Light AT Halftrack - its antinf now, really. They even cant kill m3, usually halftrack runs away lol. Best for clearing mgs in a building or some elite units - rangers with smg for example with focus fire.
5.  Upgunned Hotchkiss - dont know, i have noone in a my pe coy.
6.  Panther - god damn it, its a panther dude! Its very cost effective with micro and support. I've got 400+ xp panther in my first pe coy after 30 games. If u save anought support like shreks and marder for right moment u can push a pershing easilly (doc unit).

My summury - nondoctrinal pe have enough at vs nondoctrinal allies. Just dont use 50mm's lol

[smurfORnot]

2 hotchkins kill sherman 

[Groundfire]

Oh that 50mm HT being bad is just a load of bolognia. 

No other platform allows you the DPS of an AT gun and the mobility of a vehicle. Use them in pairs and they will neuter most tanks.

I remember back in the day that the 50mm could fire on the move. You would get 3 of them chasing down pershings because it was illogical to fight back with each HT taking 3-4 shots a piece.

They got nerfed but they are no less powerful.

[AmPM]

2 Hotchkiss cost as much Pop as that Sherman and ATG.

Also, the more likely scenario is you are trying to stop TD spam from wrecking you support, in which case the Hotch dies like a sissy to the M10 or M18...

I'm undecided, I always found PE AT lacking by default, but made up for it with Panzerfaust using infantry choices.

[tank130]

upgunned  hotchkisses  are  great  at killing tanks.

try using  two .

I agree with this. It is amazing how well two take out tanks. But, it is very, very micro intensive.
50mm spam used to be a big issue. It was a nightmare to play against. I can't remember; did 50mm get nerfed?

[sheffer]

No other platform allows you the DPS of an AT gun and the mobility of a vehicle. Use them in pairs and they will neuter most tanks.

I remember back in the day that the 50mm could fire on the move. You would get 3 of them chasing down pershings because it was illogical to fight back with each HT taking 3-4 shots a piece.

They got nerfed but they are no less powerful.

they are good in open, but they are unmicroble on maps with alot of objects like houses or hedgerows and usually easy targets for atgs and zooks

[jackmccrack]

I can't remember; did 50mm get nerfed?

The 50mm Halftrack got chonzed with slowness.

[Spartan_Marine88]

2 hotchkisses upgunned and properly microed will take out a churchill easily

Marder has a massive punch that shreds tanks, and when partnered with a light atht, you can shred infantry and tread break any m4 and turn it into a crying baby

[smurfORnot]

and when inf is paired with at gun,they shred bouth marader and lath,lol

[Artekas]

Sheffer: Already using the Marder like that, but people aren't really scared to drive past whatever I have in front of it to fight it like they are with AT guns, which is my biggest problem. Unless I have two Marders on the field at the same time, which I like to have but it's hard to do. The difference between the US supporting ATG and PE doing it, is that every rifleman squad has potential to have a sticky which does permanent engine damage, plus a bit of damage too, and rifles don't die in seconds to a tank going for your ATG. A Light AT Halftrack does temporary engine damage, costs a ton, dies fast, and doesn't actually do noticable damage with the treadbreaker like the sticky does.

It's well and good that Tankbusters can shoot infantry, but, well, that doesn't help me with killing tanks! Also, tankbusters will likely lose one on one with unupgraded rifles, especially when they destroy their own cover, which is really bad for their cost.

On the subject of Panther... just because you can gain a lot of xp with it, doesn't make it cost efficient. Any unit that costs 500+ fu is EXTREMELY easy to vet, because they're hard to kill - but that doesn't make them cost efficient. I'd like to hear an argument about how it performs and statistics making it cost efficient, not that you can keep it alive.

And then your last point - the fact of the matter is, nondoctrinal PE isn't guaranteed to face nondoctrinal allies. I'm scorched earth, which gives you literally nothing AT ALL for anti tank support, and I have to face both allied armour docs all the time. Should I just forfeit because my AT isn't good enough to deal with armour doctrines?

@Groundfire: The fact is, it's shoddy at both roles. When you say the DPS of an ATG, you mean the DPS of an ATG that's primarily useful because of ambush bonuses, without said ambush bonuses. And when you say the mobility of a vehicle, you mean the mobility of a vehicle without a turret, and a low turn speed. Of course a Pershing shouldn't be able to take them on - for the price of them you could have three PaKs with 150 fuel leftover!

The thing is, the price still hasn't been justified. A Marder III is just like the 50mm AT Halftrack, except much stronger, slightly tougher, and takes more pop and armour pool. The mobility is actually quite similar. The Marder III just costs fuel. The 50mm AT Halftrack costs munitions AND fuel.

Spartan_Marine88: That's a lot of exaggerating =p Marder has the same punch as a 57mm, and much less penetration. Light AT Halftracks hardly shred infantry, but that's beside the point. An M4 wins 77% of the time in a stand up fight against the Marder, breaking its treads will not turn it into a crying baby.

Overwhelming consensus says to use Hotchkiss, so I'm going to try them, but it saddens me the only AT solution justified so far on any basis other than "this is awesome, three of them scares a Pershing away!" is 16 pop. Other than that, though, Hotchkiss seem to be cost-efficient, with 120mu/fu going into something with proper AT dps, great mobility, and okay anti-infantry capability.

[Killer344]

I don't have the time to make the math to prove it atm, but try using marders vs low armor/vehicles and 50mm lahts vs high armor tanks and you'll see, the overall consesus atm on the high level of play is PE AT > Wher AT, especially vs light vehicle spam.

[Artekas]

See, this is my problem with what's going on in the thread. Saying the overall consensus at high level play is that PE AT is good, besides the fact that doesn't even prove consensus, doesn't tell me at all WHY or HOW PE AT is good. You don't justify it at all. Nobody in this thread has really tried to do that, just told me strategies (ie 2x hotchkiss, use 50mm halftrack because it's awesome, etc), which is exactly what I wanted to avoid.

[TheLastArmada]

brits have poor non doctrinal AT
FF needs CCT to function properly - 14pop
PIats and bren for button -8pop to 9pop
6pdr and Bren -8pop to 9pop

But i must say 2x 50mm ht with a swimwagen/ketten spotter is quite a fearsome thing 50mm outrange prety much everything AFAIK

[Killer344]

Well, you made the thread merely 3 hours ago, I'd suggest to wait a bit before getting anxious.

[Artekas]

TheLastArmada: It's great that you think brits have poor AT, that's not what the thread is about at all. If you think it's a balance issue make a thread about it instead of derailing this one. 50mm has the same range as ATGs, for the record.

Killer: I'd rather have one constructive post than fifteen posts that make a balance argument entirely around the statement "this is great, use it!". I'd be fine with my thread getting no replies in three hours if it meant that when it did get replies, they were all good replies.

[TheLastArmada]

PE really is a micro intensive faction Arte
as far as marders go dont sit em side by side
Layer them a few meters apart front and back this way the rear one should get 2 shots off whilst the front one gets atleast 1 shot off
how many vechles can walk through that kind of fire ?

[Artekas]

Telling me it's micro intensive does absolutely nothing at all, nor did I ever disagree with that statement. The rest of your post is a strategy, which while certainly good and something I do, is not helping a balance argument.