PE non-doctrinal anti-tank capabilities.

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[shockcoil]

That is not what you said but let's assume it was. I'm still right - the ATG can be easily taken out using the methods I mentioned. That leaves the allied tank defenseless and at the mercy of your AT options which have the huge advantage of being fast enough to chase things down unlike ATGs. Of course things can become more complicated in actual game, but in this hypothetical situation, it's quite easy to deal with equal pop.

[Mysthalin]

Reply to your edit : if the enemy just wasted a sticky squad on your LATHT - then just go repair and lol at the fact you just saved a panther or something else that is actually useful from getting engine damage.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Shockcoil: No, you didn't. Since you obviously can't be bothered to read the thread, the scenario I presented earlier was that any sort of armour combined with infantry and an ATG is ridiculously hard to break as PE because all of their anti-tank options barring panzershreks are raped by the ATG, while the armour and infantry protect the ATG from infantry and vehicles. Therefore it's hard to gain ground whenever a vehicle+ATG are on the field, and they can easily push you off your territory as well. Brn agreed that this is a nightmare scenario. This is a scenario that happens all the time, and the only counter I've found so far is using artillery to kill the ATG. Otherwise, I have to rely on my opponent making a mistake. If one of the most common scenarios I face has the allied player have an advantage, that's probably a balance issue!

Mysthalin: I don't know about you, but any time I don't keep my Light AT Halftrack behind my lines it dies really fast because it's a fragile little thing with little hp and no armour. I'm not interested in charging into enemy lines with it when I want to use Focus Fire, especially because being at less than 30 metres gives it a great chance to be stickied.

Just going to say 2 things.

1 Mortar Halftrack

2 Sticky used on your ltatht you win, since its a waste of a sticky

[Artekas]

Mysthalin: I never said Sherman+ATG but rather any armour + atg. Often is a Sherman, though. But this is ignoring the enemy infantry - if it's US, they could have stickies or be elite infantry which will nuke the Halftrack. If it's Brits, depending on exactly how the situation plays out they can save their ATG with Button, or a Crocodile which would almost instantly roast everything inside the Halftrack. This is also requiring you to have a very specific unit composition - two Marders, an infantry halftrack, and some assault grenadiers. Whereas they have a much more general composition - 57mm, and then any armour and infantry of their choice.

Now I'm not saying that the tactic will never work, because I am sure it will, but it's not "easily beaten".

Shockcoil: That is exactly what I said, this ENTIRE THREAD has been about PE's anti-tank. If you'd like to quote me on where I said that Panzer IVs or other armour struggle against ATGs though, be my guest. Driving a PzIV or other armour right into the enemy lines to engage an ATG while there is a Sherman, M10, Churchill, etc. and infantry around is suicidal at best.

Mysthalin: You're calling an expensive unit useless, I think this proves my point?

Spartan_Marine: As I've said, artillery is a solution, so thanks for supporting that? And a second person calling an expensive unit useless.

[shockcoil]

You're arguing PE AT cannot function because ATGs are present. I'm arguing they can because ATGs are easily killable. PE vehicles are fast and any decent flank on an ATG will result in 1 or 2 hits at most from supporting AT which lets you kill the ATG which lets you kill the tank. Hell ISTs are so tough you actually can drive up to an ATG with shermans and kill the ATG.

Also as regards to Myst's point. 2 marders and an inf ht is a very reasonable composition for PE to have. It deals with pretty much everything even outside the given scenario. But actually it doesn't even need to be this composition. I could be 2 50mms and an armoured car. Basically 2 pieces of AT and something fast which can kill ATGs which you will find plenty of in the PE army.

[Mysthalin]

But this is ignoring the enemy infantry - if it's US, they could have stickies

Don't care. Sticky being thrown and the countdown will add up to 5 seconds minimum. That is more than enough time for your guys to rape the ATG crew(assuming the halftrack is being shot by a sherman at the same time or smth). Getting out being optional. And a sticky on an IHT is yet again saving something expensive from getting stickied.

Well if the enemy has elite infantry as well as a sherman as well as an ATG in one place - perhaps it's time to break that enemy force up or nuke it yourself with some arty?

If it's brits the crocodile can only shoot the halftrack. Nothing can kill your guys inside the IHT until you are out of the IHT - not even flamethrowers. We removed that ages ago because RRs would gib out people from the halftrack. Button is also irrelevant. The guys inside continue shooting, regardless.

That kind of composition is actually one of the best compositions the PE player can have, as it deals with the majority of possible threats(with even some popcap to spare in case of a dedicated infantry rush to pull on Scout cars or ACs).

I should probably have also worded it better. Your LATHT getting stickied means there's less chance that something which costs 5 times as much fuel(P4) and is reliant on speed to be efficient will get stickied. Also, LATHT repair kits are piss cheap. If you killed a 190 MP 60 MU vet 2 sticky squad in exchange for your 25 mun repair kit - then you're in the clear.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Myst stated it quite right, this is what eirr is all about, which is another reason your 'debate' is not well recieved. This game is about attrition, saying killing 10 things and losing 2 things looks good, but if those 2 things are more expensive then the enemies 10, they win.

Its the eternal struggle of losing less resources then your enemy.

[Artekas]

Shockcoil: ATGs alone are easily killed, with support they are not. Any infantry of yours would have to fight through a unit they can't kill and two or more squads of infantry in order to get to the ATG. PzIVs are not invincible and I can guarantee trying to take down an ATG like that would end in failure. The Panzer IV would have to hit the ATG four times, with a reload time of 5 seconds and accuracy of 0.5 and a moving accuracy of 0.75. On average, it would take nearly a minute of firing to actually kill the ATG. An ATG and a Sherman can kill a PzIV so much faster than that. It's also worth noting that trying this twice with a PzIV generally won't work, and the enemy will have more armour + ATGs than you have PzIVs because you've got to split your fuel between paying for PzIVs and anti-tank.

Mysthalin: 4 assault grens firing from a halftrack will take longer than 5 seconds to kill an ATG crew unless they're at close range, especially considering that not all of the people in a halftrack fire at the same target. If you want to disembark they won't start firing instantly either, and become very vulnerable to being instant gibbed by a good shot. If they're buttoned, this gives the ATG the opportunity to move to medium range, which will significantly increase the survivability. It's not about stopping the guys from firing.

I was not aware that infantry in a halftrack were safe now, it wasn't mentioned in the EiRR changes thread.

I'd like to hear your suggestions for breaking the enemy force up. And PE has only one non-doctrinal unit artillery unit that would work, Mortar halftracks. They work good if they're defending but if they're making a push with that composition the Mortar Halftrack will have a hard time doing its job, especially since it has to worry about an elite infantry rush coming through. Stukas are nice but they're more for terror tactics than actually doing damage in my experience, even with direct hits on ATGs it doesn't seem to do too much damage, and it doesn't fare any better against elite inf.

A riflesquad doesn't disappear when in throws a sticky, if you killed it and got away to repair then yes you are clear. If you didn't kill it or you lost the unit, which is very easy for a fragile unit already hurt with a damaged engine, , then you aren't in the clear, even if you did kill the riflesquad.

Spartan_Marine88: Your post makes no sense to me. You say 'debate' as if it's something else, you say it's not well received but don't clarify what the hell that even means, and you say that the reason for this is because EiRR is about attrition. Why would my argument be not 'well received' because EiRR is about attrition, when I never said EiRR was not about attrition?

[Spartan_Marine88]

Shockcoil: ATGs alone are easily killed, with support they are not. Any infantry of yours would have to fight through a unit they can't kill and two or more squads of infantry in order to get to the ATG. PzIVs are not invincible and I can guarantee trying to take down an ATG like that would end in failure. The Panzer IV would have to hit the ATG four times, with a reload time of 5 seconds and accuracy of 0.5 and a moving accuracy of 0.75. On average, it would take nearly a minute of firing to actually kill the ATG. An ATG and a Sherman can kill a PzIV so much faster than that. It's also worth noting that trying this twice with a PzIV generally won't work, and the enemy will have more armour + ATGs than you have PzIVs because you've got to split your fuel between paying for PzIVs and anti-tank.

Just to end this as you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Pz4 IST (as we are talking about PE) Only takes 1 shot to kill an atgs crew. 2 if from the front. Also the Pz4 IST takes 4 shots with a reload time of 2 seconds, lock down reduces it to about a second.

Also as to the stickies. Unless you rushed an unsupported tank into the middle of rifles, you need to pretty much sacrifice the rifle squad to throw that sticky. sometimes it will die out right, or you need to hit that retreat button. Either way stickies hurt to use.

[AmPM]

Only if it has Incindiery, other than that it can take 2-3 to do anything.

Also, this means it takes 2-3 hits coming in, and then gets raped in the face by that Sherman.

[Artekas]

Context is relevant, I was obviously referring to the Panzer IV PE has. You're also obviously making shit up because it has a reload time of 4.5-5.5 seconds, average 5, and no matter how much you say it has a reload time of 2 seconds does not make it a fact. Lock down reduces it to 1.75 second average but the improved fire rate doesn't start the second you lock down, and gives an accuracy penalty as if it were moving.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Only if it has Incindiery, other than that it can take 2-3 to do anything.

Also, this means it takes 2-3 hits coming in, and then gets raped in the face by that Sherman.

Bullshit AMPM, for ist's 1 shot atgs they do it all the time

[brn4meplz]

Mortar's are far more an Offensive tool then a Defensive one. When your trying to use a Mortar on the defensive the enemy is constantly moving towards your position. When you attack them it puts them on the back foot and they are less likely to move around. Elite infantry won't be an issue if he has to prevent you from killing his Anti Tank guns.

Also IHT's can quickly close the distance to enemy anti tank options and can kill the gun crew very quickly. I think your underestimating how quickly things can kill.


Playing PE is different but it's not an impossible task. All the situations you're describing can be equally voiced for WM vs the US, or US vs WM. Alot of Allied players make the exact same arguments against 50mm Halftrack considering how survivable they are.

Every faction manages to find it's way around universal obstacles with the same tools at hand. Shermans vs Pak's, P4's vs 57's.

PE is by no means alone in this or at a disadvantage, it's simple a different approach, and that more then anything takes acclimatizing too.

We like to avoid situations like this,

An ATG and a Sherman can kill a PzIV so much faster than that.

Simply because it accounts for very few units on field. Further, in that specific situation it isn't even accounting for equal population or the exact equivalent of the ATG + Sherman combo.

We've all been there before on any forum where people just magically bring units out of the darkness to counter someones magical counters from your previous counter to his initial argument. It gets about as messy as the previous sentence.

[Spartan_Marine88]

And just to prove it.

1 atg + 1 Sherman loses to 1 ist + 1 panther

[Mysthalin]

4 assault grens firing from a halftrack will take longer than 5 seconds to kill an ATG crew unless they're at close range

Why you would use STG44s at anything other than short range, when you're aboard an IHT(which is way faster than any of the things the STG44 is effective against) is beyond me. So yeah, if you're doing it right you'll charge in, quickly kill the ATG before it can properly do anything(even better if it turns - your marders can move in that much earlier) and win the front.

You're playing SE aren't you? Do you need me to spell out the artillery that's available to you? And dual stukas are just absolute rape-face. Had many vet 3 stukas, love em ever so much ^^.

Breaking the enemy force up isn't as hard as you would think. Back-capping is a wonderful way of doing it, something PE is especially efficient at considering their mobility. Another nice thing to do is going to help your ally(allies) on his(their) side, which not only helps destroy the contingents of two players, but puts your alloted enemy into a scramble to help, which breaks up his force. Making it that much easier to kill.

And yeah - the P4 likes to shoot the infantry on the ATG quite a lot, thank you. Then it requires merely two shots to kill it. I've never actually seen an ATG survive for one minute bing circled by anything, with the sole exception being a StUG that had lost it's main gun and MG gunner. But that's due to fairly obvious reasons.

[Artekas]

brn: I'm pretty sure I said that Mortar Halftracks work great when the enemy is defending, and not so well when they're attacking.

Playing PE is not the same as playing every other faction, because PE is the only faction whose ATG is almost guaranteed to be hit by other ATGs and be killed by them in 3 hits. All of PE's anti vehicle methods require fuel and are vehicles. PE is most definitely alone in this situation.

The situation provided is not just in a void where counters come up magically, it's an extremely common one. One piece of armour, one ATG, and two or more squads of infantry. For the sake of simplicity I assumed that the infantry wouldn't have anti-tank weapons. It was suggested that a PzIV could charge into this set up and kill the ATG.

[brn4meplz]

a P4 alone no.
but thats 12+4+5+5=26

I've seen alot of PE starting call ins completely remove what is a very valid Allied opening without much loss.

All I'm pointing out is that bringing units onto an imaginary playing field doesn't actually perpetuate a balance discussion. It just compounds into something that ends up being 140 total population and taking 40 minutes to resolve. Which happens to be an Average company size and game length. Many PE players are winning games hands down. Heck I used Cloaked Hetzers to kill ATG's and thats supposed to be a direct counter unit. The mechanics of the game allow for interesting approaches and situations to unfold. Situations that seem absurd on the forums.

[Artekas]

Mysthalin: I never suggested that the Assault Grenadiers go sniping with StG44s. But the Halftrack doesn't magically appear next to the ATG, it must drive up from long range, into medium range, into short range. This was also an argument for button, which would keep you out of short range.

I obviously have the Hummel available, however this thread is not just about me, it's about the balance of PE. Dual Stukas take up half of my population in the early-mid game, so I'm going to have to choose between having suitable anti-tank (at 6 pop for a Marder, plus 4 pop for 50mm/shreks or another 6 pop for 2 Marders) or having infantry (at 4 pop per squad). There's no way to have suitable anti-tank, infantry, and dual stukas until the late game. If you wanted you could have a Marder and an infantry squad, which would solve nothing because a lone Marder is useless and a lone infantry squad won't accomplish much.

Regarding the PzIV, the minute to kill was regarding targeting the ATG itself, which unless something is changed in the mod tanks will do. Killing the crew then becomes about luck with where misses scatter to, which is impossible to calculate but it doesn't happen in one shot.

Brn: A P4 alone, because your support is irrelevant. The two anti-tank units you've got are waiting until the ATG is dead to kill the Sherman, and if you have infantry they're going to have to fight through the enemy's infantry.

PE players winning games has nothing to do with anything, because regardless of balance a player that is much more skilled than another will win, or if the players are of equal skill but one made a huge mistake or two. Anyone could go around fighting newbs all day to win with PE and then say PE is balanced because of that fact.

Hetzers are doctrinal, and besides that Hetzers have armour that is twice as good as a Tiger's. Not quite as much HP though, but you have to penetrate to get a kill/damage crit. ATGs are not the best choice to kill Hetzers, but rather just about anything else, which can flank and kill it fast with penetrating rear armour shots.

[Mysthalin]

Which is why you flank the enemy ATG and make use of your awesome speed to close the gap before it can do anything. Button might be a bitch at times, but 'tis the way the game plays out. Nothing should be uncounterable.

Don't be a pussy and use your hotchkiss stukas as anti-infantry then. You'd be surprised how effective they are at this role.

The P4 actually has a 75 percent chance of targetting the infantry over the ATG itself when given an attack order, so yeah - you're wrong. Also, at short range(circling range) - the P4 will always hit the ATG via scatter(rare exceptions do happen sometimes, but sigh). Why would your Anti-tank Assets wait idlily while your P4 is raping the ATG? Chances are the ATG will turn to face the P4 anyway.

[brn4meplz]

Brn: A P4 alone, because your support is irrelevant. The two anti-tank units you've got are waiting until the ATG is dead to kill the Sherman, and if you have infantry they're going to have to fight through the enemy's infantry.

I'm going to make this clear because it's something that alot of people around the world don't understand.

When your profession falls within the realm of aggressive inter personal conflicts, and your job is to kick down doors and kill people, casualties will be sustained. It's going to happen, no matter how hard you train how fast you move how good you are. People will die.


Everything in EiR comes down to combined operations, the concept that if everything is working together it's functioning better then the sum of it's parts.

You will never play a real game of EiR and sustain no losses so don't even try for it. When you attack it should be as aggressive as possible with everything you can manage to bring.
nothing should be sitting back waiting for something to die. You will sustain damage, you will endure losses. But you may achieve victory.