The Hotchkiss is UP

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[sgMisten]

Smokaz is right that upgun Hotchkiss is cheap, fuel-wise anyway. Comparing to M10, being AT chase units, well, judge by yourself based on the stats. M10 doesn't penetrate heavy tanks frontally either.

Personally, I think the 100 less HP on the hotchkiss, plus the prevalence of manpacked AT, makes it harder to use than the M10. But like the M10, if the Hotchkiss can avoid manpacked AT, it should rape vehicles as fast as the M10 does.

M10
HP:400
Speed: 6.8
Acceleration: 1.7
Damage: 112.5 per 4.2 seconds (28 DPS)
Cost: 300/0/190
Pop: 10

Upgun Hotchkiss
HP:300
Speed: 6.5
Acceleration: 4.0
Damage: 75 per 2.8 seconds (27 DPS)
Cost: 310/0/70
Pop: 8

[Spartan_Marine88]

looks fine to me, especially since 2 pop makes a HUGE difference

[FailHammer]

give them smoke. done. useful unit now, not op, doesnt break shit. wow. youre welcome

[smurfORnot]

make it come from glider like tetrach if you are luft!?

[LeoPhone]

no, make it airdroppable like 57mm

edit: no, 57mm is too epic to compare with hotchkiss. make hotchkiss come down like butterfly bombs maybe they become useful then.

[11on2d6]

how fast is the puma/m8?

Should at least be 7pop imo. Considering allies have a lot more effective manpack too saying avoid is easier said than done, esp with no dodge bonus's :s. Its not really fair to compare shrecks to RR's and Boys at rifles since shrecks at long range means the m10 might as well have a dodge bonus, where as RR's/ boys at will hit at long range no problem.

The mp should also be moved into line with the other lights, more like 280-290 than 310.

[smurfORnot]

no, make it airdroppable like 57mm

edit: no, 57mm is too epic to compare with hotchkiss. make hotchkiss come down like butterfly bombs maybe they become useful then.

he should spinn in circles while dropping down,lol

[PonySlaystation]

All ToV units are fucked up. Relic made them like that for a reason, to remove balance from vcoh forever in exchange for money.

[smurfORnot]

not only fucked,but ugly too...atleast hotch is...

[Artekas]

Puma is 7 speed, M8 and T17 are 6.4 speed. We don't need any silly solutions like giving them new abilities. The only thing that needs changing is the pop of all AV LVs. Stop looking at just buffing the Hotchkiss and not the other AV LVs. Yes, the Hotchkiss does not have dodge. But the other AV LVs don't have great penetration, good range, or great rate of fire. It evens out. If you give the Hotch dodge bonuses - look at how fucking overpowered that would be. It would then be superior to the Stuart and 50mm Puma in every way that matters, while it would only be costing 30 more manpower. If you give the Hotchkiss any kind of huge buff, like dodge or a new ability, it throws it completely out of balance with the other AV LVs.

I'd like to remind you that these things are really cheap, they shouldn't be godlike tankhunters. They are very cost effective.

[PonySlaystation]

Yep, they way better than up-gunned pumas.

[11on2d6]

Ok ive got videos this time.

The first 1 shows how insanely unforgiving these units are, esp compared to armour that dodges stuff, leaves you with very little room for error.

http://www.xfire.com/video/3d3b7b/


This second one displays how as a "light vehcile" it is not even capable of escaping from an allied heavy tank, a feat I can say with complete confidence any of the allied light armour could have achieved.

http://www.xfire.com/video/3d3b83/

Excuse the poor quality of this one. For those that cant see the m10 had about 1/3 hp left, full health hotchkiss comes out to chase it down. All except 1 shot were at rear, hotchkiss still dies, though it did kill the m10. Cost effective? considering m10 had 1/3...hell no, upgunned puma would have done a much better job.

http://www.xfire.com/video/3d3b98/

[Artekas]

You charge into an ATG with either Tank Reapers or AP rounds with your LV and it died? What a surprise!

Second instance was shitty micro that was entirely your own fault, and has nothing to do with the Hotchkiss whatsoever.

Didn't bother to watch the third but... no, a Puma would not likely have performed better, considering it does less damage and fires slower.

PS you also didn't address my point at all, just tried to prove it was underpowered by videos that show off certain situations. I could have taken a video of my match where my 4 man assault grenadier squad was killed by 5 shots from an ATG at medium range in cover and used it to say "OMG ATG IS OVERPOWERED NERF INF ACCURACY TO 0%", but honestly that doesn't prove anything.

[11on2d6]

wow aint you sweet, you seem to think very highly of yourself, but please try to be nice. That atg did not have tank reapers, I checked fyi. But yea, nice call. I couldnt see it untill I was already around the corner, all I was saying that compared to all the other LV in the game, none of them would have died to that. The only other one without dodge takes 4-5 pak hits to kill, the staghound.


Pray tell what was wrong with my micro in the 2nd video? pershing was keeping up with the hotch. Im sure you can tell me how to micro properly, since your so good at using hotch's yourself.

If your going to respond to balance threads, please do so properly and have the good grace to actualy examine other peoples posts properly before responding.

Thanks.


Are you accusing me of playing loads of games and looking for freak instances of unlikley events where hotchkiss die, with no balance relevence?
Cause this was my first game today, comparing my video's to an ATG landing 4 shots on infantry in medium cover in a row, which has less than a 1.3% chance of happening is insulting.

As for your point about it being cost effective? watch the last video, thats what its for.


Furthermore your hyperbole is uncalled for, im trying to stay away from drastic balance suggestions, when you pointed out dodge would be too good I suggested alternative fixes, no need for you to get so aggresive.


Be honest, nothing I could say, do or show you would convince you at this point would it?

[Artekas]

Okay I forgot that the 57mm does 150 damage base, my mistake there. Nonetheless, you are still at fault. You charged forward into the fog of war with a vehicle, it really does not matter what vehicle it is but it always ends badly because it's a stupid idea.

You really can't see what's wrong with your micro in the second video? The Hotchkiss just stopped and started rotating, and then rotated back, allowing the Pershing to close the distance.

I am not accusing you of anything, chill out. I am simply stating that single incidents are completely unrelated to balance and thus showing videos doesn't prove anything.

My point about it being balanced in relation to other AV LVs, which you completely and totally ignored. If you do something big like a new ability for it it completely tips the scale and overpowers the Hotchkiss. The ONLY THING the other LVs have over the Hotchkiss is their dodge bonus (and the puma is a bit faster), they're about the same at anti-infantry (one is more accurate but slower firing) and the Hotchkiss is superior at anti-vehicle compared with a Puma.

I'm not really being aggressive, you just seem to have a persecution complex. I didn't accuse you of anything, and I'm just sitting here debating things. I never insulted you or attacked you in any way. Meanwhile you're doing things like implying that I am not responding properly ("If your going to respond to balance threads, please do so properly").

A good argument that shows why Hotchkiss are bad in relation to Stuarts and 50mm Pumas would be a good way to convince me. Ignoring my arguments and posting single incidents will never convince me.

[11on2d6]

That last bit was mostly because you didnt bother to watch my video.  Upgunned hotchkiss cant kill infantry for shit, its about as effective as a firefly vs infantry.

[Artekas]

I never said that the Hotchkiss was good at killing infantry, simply that it was about the same effective as a 50mm Puma, which is also not that good at killing infantry. However, neither of them are anywhere near as bad as a Firefly at killing infantry. The Firefly has .2 accuracy against infantry and a further .5 accuracy if they're moving, plus it fires much slower, if it's at close range it will fire about one shot for every three shots by the Hotchkiss and if it's at long range it will fire about one shot for every 2ish shots the Hotchkiss fires.

By the way, I didn't mean to offend you by not watching that last video. I assumed your point was that a 50mm Puma would have performed better in that situation and I could safely say it wasn't just from the description, I didn't realise you were also making a point about cost effectiveness. I watched the video just now and it looks like you just had some bad luck.

[11on2d6]

Your correct, I was wrong about the upgunned hotch having the same accuracy as the firefly vs basic infantry, its 0.15 and also have a 0.5 moving accuracy bonus. Its worse than the firefly. Though the reason it gets more inf kills is as you stated correctly probably due to its high rate of fire.

Im going to keep playing with my hotchkiss, they are fun. But I dont believe that they are currently balanced, im not sure what needs to be changed, but something needs to be done imo.

[Artekas]

Is your information coming from the RGDs? 50mm Hotchkiss should have .35 accuracy against infantry with no further reduction against moving infantry, I remember this from vcoh stats and I have never heard any mention of it being changed in EiRR. If it was changed, that's honestly quite retarded and it should be reverted. Although it would still be better than the Firefly against infantry, as the significantly better fire rate makes up for .15 accuracy instead of .20. Not to mention, the splash is three times as big.

[11on2d6]

yea I think its correct man, the 0.5 is the hotch's moving acc, not vs moving infantry. I think you might be looking at the regular hotchkiss, which has much better accuracy vs infantry. I cant find the hotch's accuracy vs moving infatry >.<, blind.


Cant believe It just hit me, maybe I should be comparing this to the tetrach? arnt they supposed to be pretty much mirrored?