Tripple Nerfs - The Churchill Croc

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[smurfORnot]

why not? if u could have 4 pershings, would you?

you could had them,and with 2x repair per one,there was rly no need for 4th,since I had them,and 3 of em easly lasted me whole game.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I know it's completely not my place, but putting Wind on the balance team would be a damn good decision, the man plays a lot of games and knows what to do. After chatting on vent, it seems like a lot of members who have been on the balance team get kicked out for stupid personal feuds (Or fake reasons) rather than making horrible, horrible decisions balance wise. Then again, i've only heard the one side of the story.

I'm honoured Spinn, but oh god I want no part of that Balance Advisory team ever again.


When I was on it it was bad enough as it is, so now I don't even want to think of how absurd it is with no kind of sherrif in town. Back then it was a full time job preventing nonsense like this from happening, and forcing people to qualify their 'balance suggestions' as anything more than reactionary theorycrafting and 'army i dont use but find tough to beat' sabotage.

Back then you had guys like Skaffa, Mysthalin, and Smokaz posting on those forums and 'objective opinion' was as foreign a concept as string theory pancake making. At one point Smokaz was waging a secret campaign via pms and vent chats with his mod contacts to try and get me off the board. He even made a 'proposed guidelines thread' where one of the main guidelines was "Let's assume no one on this board is biased and give everyone in the BA team the benefit of the doubt". Granted he's come a long way since then and he's no longer ridiculous, but this was a different time.

Now look at who you've got on there. Smokaz is still there, free to run rampant without his nemesis to collar him. And he gets to weigh in on churchill crocs? When is the last time you saw him using one? And you've got Groundfire commenting on Churchill crocodiles with some kind of authority. Yeah groundfire - the guy who plays WM and Americans exclusively and couldn't use PE or CE to save his life. (I love the guy and he does great works for the mod community, but I'm talking balance here. It's a totally different beast).

Is anyone saying to themselves: 'hmmmm, maybe not the best contributing voice for a nerf to a CE unit?'. Certainly not the balance team!


The fact of the matter is, that as long as the mod team is willingly to blindly trust people who have a vested interest in their army being stronger while not having ANY kind of system in place that weeds out inevitable bias, we're going to get nonsense like this. Knee-jerk, hyper-reactive and unrealistic balance changes.

One law I tried to implement in the BA forum was that no one should be allowed to propose nerfs for a unit that isn't in their 1 or 2 main armies. You can imagine how that went over.

Its way easier, after all, to 'balance' something you don't use.

-Wind

[BigDick]

For example:
A)
1. The croc had it's fuel nerfed.
2. The Croc had it's MP nerfed.
3. The croc had its Population nerfed.

This is called a tripple nerf.

k revert the pop increase and menpoweer increase and just change its fuel cost to 500fuel

single nerf and would be fit more since it can be considered as some kind of heavy tank

done

/close

[DarkSoldierX]

Churchhills all in all are very spamable and cost effective, the nerf is fine, I agree that things some nerfs and buffs should be smaller pushes, but for the croc, if you just increase manpower cost by 100, that wouldnt do much! If you just increased fuel by 80, still wouldnt do much, one less bren carrier. But if you do it combined, it actualy does something that will have a slight impact on the game.

[TheWindCriesMary]

lol wind is a nerd

Damn straight my man.

Balance should be approached just like a court of law. We'd all love to live in a world where everyone is a perfect flower and is incapable of bias or subconscious dis ingeniousness, but that's not the way the world is. You need checks and balances, and objective standards and practices.

Right now the balance team operates on a hopeful optimism. Until that changes balance will continue to be a clonky and clumsy affair that keeps making the armies favored by the few the strongest.

-Wind

[TheWindCriesMary]

Churchhills all in all are very spamable and cost effective, the nerf is fine, I agree that things some nerfs and buffs should be smaller pushes, but for the croc, if you just increase manpower cost by 100, that wouldnt do much! If you just increased fuel by 80, still wouldnt do much, one less bren carrier. But if you do it combined, it actualy does something that will have a slight impact on the game.

Keep in mind that by increasing it by 80 fuel, you are also getting the ancillerary benefits of a nerf.

For example, increasing the croc by 80 fuel means one less bren or stag, correct. However, if your army has 3 crocs, that is now 240 fuel which is substantially more drastic. That is a cromwell or 2-3 stags. Now add on another 200 MP and 3 pop at the same time. Voila, in one nerf your army is now looking very different.

Again this isn't about whether or not the croc should be nerfed. I don't mind units being nerfed to make them not ultra cost-effective, but it is about how a single tripple nerf done in an extremely short time in the middle of a war is the absoloute worst way to balance.

The only reason to nerf something three times in one go is because you hate that unit, are afraid of it, and wan't to cripple it as quickly as possible so your next game will be easier.

-Wind

[TheIcelandicManiac]

where have you been the last month wind?

i have been missing the times when i was allways confusing you and leo together

[DarkSoldierX]

wait.... dont we always nerf mid war?

[TheWindCriesMary]

where have you been the last month wind?

i have been missing the time when i was allways confusing you and leo together

Been busy. I figured being gone a few weeks wouldn't be long enough for the balance team to get up to too much mischeif. After all, if you nerf things responsibly it can take several weeks to complete.

Little did I know they wanted to do it all in one day!

-Wind

[TheWindCriesMary]

wait.... dont we always nerf mid war?

tripple nerf done in an extremely short time in the middle of a war

See that part about a 'tripple nerf done in an extremely short time'? See how it comes a long with the part about 'middle of a war'? That collaborative placement is kind of important.

-Wind

[Smokaz]

You want open development wind, which is unlikely to happen. It's not how they have managed things in the past. If they have seen advantage to such a thing the benefits surely must have been drowned out by the amount of spam and nonsense you have to wade through on these forums to get to the small core of useful information, I'm not surprised at all.

This should most of all resonate in your own use the forum medium as means of conveying information, the vast majority of your posts contain pseudo-intellectual meta-discussion of the forum experience itself, switching and transforming the purpose of the discussion into whatever you feel is the crusade goal for the moment. Your post's reflect upon the worst of the internet, proverbial popup's and namedrops etc like a mob of pirates wildly shooting their muskets.

No matter how good intentions are you'll notice that short and concise discussion's backed up by actual facts and as little conjecture as possible has regularly gained most attention and support. This very thread is a good example of a valid complaint and root discussion going bad and becoming some niche culture event uninteresting to the majority of the community.

Yes, indeed. This thread is precisely the wrong way to go about things. Take pot shots at the mod leadership or more correctly, singling out some balance tyrant gang making changes when it's been the sole territory of RGD coders to "do whatever they want" and balance stuff always has been put to votes and radical changes always was hard to get through.

This thread presents the initial gripe of something being wrong about churchills, and when that isn't heard (disagreed with) it's intellectual genitalia gets aroused and "those morons" managing things get cursed at. When people are unable to dedicate vast amount of time to both browse the forums, they must find the lack of real information and discussion here pretty horrific to browse through in a guilt trip about community input.

Again, croc is cheap in EIRR. It's not expensive. You can argue details like tank shock but EIRR's implementation is of it's price is in a lower end of the only comparable standard.

You want balance/design to a extent to be decided by people who play all factions at all times, have 100% insight into whatever is in of stats in the current patch and is able to squirm under the just concepts you throw out as the rules of thumb? Guess what, that disqualifies all of us. Almost no part of development plays actively at all, if they play they play periodically and a quaint amount of games compared to the average "active" member, be sure of that.

So your rebellion is a rebellion without cause (ka-ching!) because what decides the patch? Ownership and established position. You want to rag on the leadership? Feel free to rag on the leadership, they are the moderators and the RGD coders and the developers. They are not anyone in a special balance team, they merely provide input.

My complaint with you wind has been the same operative definition as it is today: your swordplay is plagued by too much samba. The thrusts and spars are there but there's a lot of taunting and fancy waving to go along with it, obfuscating the moves. Being concise and clear, being able to draw clear comparisons and make things understandable in a easy and collective manner is something you simply do not exhibit by attempt.

Smokaz is still there, free to run rampant without his nemesis to collar him

You want blood, it's the devs, moderators and coders you have to draw out. They are the guys that are sitting on the power and the insight. If they dont have insight into the flaws you claim is there, nobody has. There are a total of three other members who don't have as a important formal function and they have insight and deciding power into nothing more than they produce or partake in themselves, which means that they can suggest something and hope for a vote but that's it.

PS: I've been inactive for over a month. I had nothing to do with your churchills but i'm happy to see you irked by it.

tudelu

[Smokaz]

I'm with Wind on this one in relation to a poor balance team -- I've played games with Devs or Moderators who have been smacked by abilities or certain units and have then threatened to 'nerf the shit out of it' in the next patch.

I know it's completely not my place, but putting Wind on the balance team would be a damn good decision, the man plays a lot of games and knows what to do. After chatting on vent, it seems like a lot of members who have been on the balance team get kicked out for stupid personal feuds (Or fake reasons) rather than making horrible, horrible decisions balance wise. Then again, i've only heard the one side of the story.

Name and shame them.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Name and shame them.

was that an admittence that you did that or what wind said is a lie?

[Smokaz]

I sent 40 pop of grenadiers with lmgs against wind's crocs, and I couldn't beat it. So obviously it was a admittance of guilt. in allmighty rage i cursed the opness of the croc and woved to have it nerfed to fit my bias

[Killer344]

It's funny how everyone blames someone else lol.

LISTEN, EVERYTHING IS LAI'S FAULT, HE'S THE SECRET PUPPETEER BEHIND THE SHOW!

[TheIcelandicManiac]

DAMM YOU LAI!!!!
DAMM YOU!!!!!

[Spartan_Marine88]

What confuses me is why didn't they just hard cap it like the rest of the super tanks, instead of giving it a cost that it isn't worth.

[Unkn0wn]

It's not a super tank like 'the rest of them'. And the price better reflects the unit's strength than the old price. You could argue it's maybe 10 or 20 F too expensive, that's certainly a valid discussion, but the old price was certainly too low. (320 F, really? Cmon, anyone with half a brain should realise the crocodile performs way above that price... In comparison, a Sherman Jumbo is 380 F) Same goes with the manpower, there was not a single heavy tank out there that had a MP price as low as the Churchill's.

Also, with all due respect wind, before accusing our balance team of bias, maybe some self reflection is in order... Of course everyone is biased to a certain extent (that includes you, claiming that you're somehow above it is ridiculous), that's why decisions are made in a team rather than by a sole individual, a team composed of players who have more than shown themselves capable of grasping the game's mechanics.

The only reason to nerf something three times in one go is because you hate that unit, are afraid of it, and wan't to cripple it as quickly as possible so your next game will be easier.

Or when it is realised that the current price is by all standards a balance oversight that needed to be corrected.

You're hardly complaining about the price itself, all you're doing here is pointing fingers and telling everyone how absolutely TERRIBLE our balance team is. We get it, it was a considerable price increase that, to you, seems like it was 'knee-jerk' and 'irrational' but in fact wasn't. More so, it was a change that went in more than several weeks ago and I can hardly recall anyone complaining then.

Again this isn't about whether or not the croc should be nerfed. I don't mind units being nerfed to make them not ultra cost-effective, but it is about how a single tripple nerf done in an extremely short time in the middle of a war is the absoloute worst way to balance.

Here you say you're not even arguing that the price may be too high now. That means you can probably agree with the current price. So who cares how that current price came to exist if it is the correct one? Would you rather we take 3 weeks to reach this price than just do it one go if the end result is exactly the same? I don't think so.

So really, if you want to argue the croc price itself, go make a balance post. Enough with this show.