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Author Topic: [PE] PzGren Changes  (Read 54929 times)
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cloud234 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 363


« on: February 05, 2011, 04:14:11 am »

Bugs
- Launcher does not reflect increase in price or popcap
- Support Grenadiers not affected by Stats change. (Intentional? Non-intentional?)

Refer to attachment for short replay showcasing how they work.

EDIT: PRE-POP & PRICE NERF

Ingame Performance
The grens generally performed sub par and were terrible against an inferior group of Rifleman, atgs and flame engineers. Bear in mind that in that engagement, I had a scout car healing, as good as fighting at triage.

They have became both tougher and weaker because of the change in armour type and their weakness towards BAR rifles are markedly shown here.

However, I notice they seem to die off one by one in this context more so than with infantry_soldier armour. I do not know if that can be substantiated (inf_solder armour).

While they have reduced vulnerability to flames, they weak DPS don't make much of a difference either.

Bear in mind that technically, if the new balance changes are justified, Popcap for popcap, cost for cost, they are greatly inferior.

The increase in HP also means that it takes longer to heal them at the scout car, which is again, a nerf in a certain way.

Closing Thoughts
Previously while lacking in combat performance, their low popcap and not-too-expensive cost allows you to field them in large amounts, creating tactical flexibility for recrewing, map capping and delivering flanks/picking up weapons.

If you keep prices and popcap the same, it is a very worthwhile unit, albeit somewhat similar to the tommy infantry as being tough but dealing little damage. I would think it is safer to revert it to the original. I will test more games and see how they perform against proper players.

HOWEVER! I realise that they are better at "retaining" veterancy now, in the sense that they can survive better.

Also! I picked Neuville because I know the tactic I'm using will work best on this map. Will test it on other maps and see how it fares. Sorry for the constant "modify post".

Please share your experiences with this unit as well (other PE players).
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 05:25:27 am by cloud234 » Logged
BigDick
Guest
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2011, 04:30:30 am »

wasn't that good you took a game with demon vs 2 guys playing their first eir game lol


but what i saw in that replay is that the healing rate of support scoutcar should be increased to fit the more hp but worse armor type change.

currently it looked like it healed nothing even while your grens were sitting around it almost all the time
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Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
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Posts: 18377


« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2011, 04:34:22 am »

Fixing all price and pop issues after the patch now, wasn't around to do it after launch.
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cloud234 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 363


« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2011, 05:08:57 am »

wasn't that good you took a game with demon vs 2 guys playing their first eir game lol

I fully agree. You can only see the health drop. I got another game.

EDIT: PRE-POP & PRICE NERF

Cloud
Gorkhali (OMG SAVE ME PLEASE)

vs

LordMalgorath
RoyalHants

They had Churchie Croc and HE Pershing, easily one of the best stuff around. I think HE persh needs a nerf. Fast moving Tiger + high accuracy for the lulz.

I'm not sure if its just me, but I think they are more EASILY suppressed with infantry armour than inf_soldier armour. Any stat crunch to support that?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 05:25:00 am by cloud234 » Logged
Malgoroth Offline
Donator
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Posts: 960


« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2011, 05:14:28 am »

At worst that would mean they get suppressed just the same as grenadiers (I think... unless there's some modifier in there... but I'm not sure that there is).

It'd probably help though if you didn't blob all you're infantry together like you did  Tongue
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BigDick
Guest
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2011, 05:19:28 am »

I think HE persh needs a nerf. Fast moving Tiger + high accuracy for the lulz.

i complained about that long time ago especially since this ability is on toggle button
but i have given up on that because hicks tried what ever he could to protect his toys from being rebalanced lol

Quote
I'm not sure if its just me, but I think they are more EASILY suppressed with infantry armour than inf_soldier armour. Any stat crunch to support that?

afaik soldier armor give you some suppression resistance
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sheffer Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 593



« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2011, 05:42:55 am »

avoid bars at all costs by your pe grens.

Bars vs Infantry Soldier (old pegrens)
acc 0.75
dmg 0.4

Bars vs Infantry (new pegrens)
acc 1
dmg 0.75

US HMG vs Infantry Soldier (old pegrens)
acc 0.75
dmg 0.75

US HMG vs Infantry (new pegrens)
acc 1
dmg 1

CW tommy brens vs Infantry Soldier (old pegrens)
acc 0.75
dmg 0.5

CW tommy brens vs Infantry Soldier (old pegrens)
acc 1
dmg 0.75

Now Pe cant just rush any inf based AI, more WH like playstyle needed.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 05:49:37 am by sheffer » Logged


Senseless and ruthless.
Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
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Posts: 18377


« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 05:48:22 am »

We'll be giving them a sprint upgrade next patch I believe. (Instead of sprint through vet)
(The veteran sergeant upgrade will be reworked)
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nugnugx Offline
Donator
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Posts: 4051



« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 06:06:07 am »

Why not just leave the soldier armor ?
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spinn72 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1802



« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 06:10:15 am »

Is it smart having PzGrens at the same pop as FSJ's?
I figure a lot of luft players are just going to ditch Pgrens and field more Falls with g43's now.

By the way, what pushed for the change in PE?
Logged
smurfORnot Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4715



« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 06:17:32 am »

why eveh have pgrens as luft?  Grin
u have falls and luft inf,what more do u need...
Logged
cloud234 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 363


« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 06:21:20 am »

@ Sheffer

Thanks for the Stats and stuff. So that confirms my suspicion on their poorer performance. Whoever did that change never considered the full implications of it.

We'll be giving them a sprint upgrade next patch I believe. (Instead of sprint through vet)
(The veteran sergeant upgrade will be reworked)

Sprint is useless if you leave PzGrens like this. Its only good for running in to drop an incin nade or to run away from tanks. After that, you're still pretty fked.

Anyway one final game

LordMalgorath
Cloud

vs

RoyalHants
AcetylCOA

On Vengeance, a map myself and malgorath both knew is the worse for PE players. You could still do well on this map if you have a Mortar HT or a lot of indirect fire, but thats something we didn't have a lot on.

The highlight of the game is somewhere in the midgame when we were rushing triage area.

We had about 4 PzGrens in that area, popping shots against 2 and a half rifleman squad. You're talking about 860MP vs 500 MP or so and we still ain't killing shit. Our HP was dropping about the same as theirs. Just watch the replay.

True that we played poorly this game, but you have only to look at the "survivability" of the PzGrens (barring Hard Counters like Church Croc) and you'll know that they are really subpar and poor.

They are also affected against the Quad. Previously they are able to evade the Quad without getting suppressed (thanks to inf_soldier armour) but now as long as they see a Quad its GG for them.

Not the best of games, but I think u can see the full effect of the stat changes.

Closing Thoughts
I recommend that you don't play PE at all unless u use inf hts with ur troops. The 1popcap increase is similar to the ATG increase, in the sense it does not impact much unless u spam it(which u have to have ALOT of inf). A INF HT with flame assault grens is fine.... but if ur an infantry heavy army. Forget it. Your company will be so gimped its not even funny.

I'm not going to bother to try any more games. PE PzGrens just suck. Period. I rest my case.
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Demon767 Offline
Warmap Betatester
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6190



« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 06:42:59 am »

OMG WTF LETS CHANGE WM GRENS TO BECAUSE THEY ALL ARE IDENTICAL NOW OMGGSZZZZ
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Tymathee Offline
Donator
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Posts: 9741



« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2011, 06:50:08 am »

Oh, by the way, i forget they're supposed to get sprint as a buy now rather than at vet 2, that makes 'em diff than wm grens
Logged

"I want proof!"
"I have proof!"
"Whatever, I'm still right"

Dafuq man, don't ask for proof if you'll refuse it if it's not in your favor, logic fallacy for the bloody win.
TheIcelandicManiac Offline
Resident forum troll. Fucked unkn0wns mom
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Posts: 6294


« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2011, 07:00:36 am »

wow the panzer grens are useless, wtf guys?
you loose 4 grens to a single bar squad
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Quote from: Grundwaffe
Soon™
gj icelandic i am proud of u  Smiley
Sometimes its like PQ doesnt carrot all.

Work Harder
spinn72 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1802



« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2011, 07:09:26 am »

wow the panzer grens are useless, wtf guys?
you loose 4 grens to a single bar squad

My BAR's thank you, devs.
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sheffer Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 593



« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2011, 07:18:38 am »

may armor type was changeed  without health buffs?
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NightRain Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3908



« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2011, 07:19:52 am »

rofl that was a hilarious game by the looks of it. Even royaldodge managed to do something!

Grenadiers are awsome because they get medkits. Pzgrens- dont.
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Because a forum post should be like a woman's skirt. Long enough to cover the subject material, but short enough to keep things interesting.
kwiatekkek Offline
okultysta, mistyk, szachista i alpinista.
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Posts: 702



« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2011, 07:30:34 am »

wow the panzer grens are useless, wtf guys?
you loose 4 grens to a single bar squad

that was well........forseeable Huh
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"L2P" is like a Auswitcz tattoo on your arm, a mark of the survivor.
*cough* Team Lead is Allied bias, just FYI
nugnugx Offline
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Posts: 4051



« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2011, 07:42:48 am »

bar is an upgrade costing mu so it should have an advantage vs non upgraded inf


speaking of which ,  pgrens need more survivability if they are not supposed to make damage like wehr grens.

Currently  wehr grens - hp /dmg   pgrens - hp of grens / no damage

wehr ones could be the damage dealers  and pe ones could be the 'tankers' speaking in a mmo fashion, but to be effective in that they need more hp.

so soldier armor could return, or have a noticable hp buff around 160
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