[US] Jumbo

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[NightRain]

Infantry would love a heavier Breakthrough tank to break through opponents and push through the MGs and shite with infantry surrounding it. Think it as a churchill. Churchill is shit but it absords all the damage and firing and gets its job done (steel wall) while it clears out the MG for infantry to rush in. If armor were to get a HVAP Jumbo's I'd cry. OR HE Jumbo's in that matter. Plus Armor already gets the access to Calliope and Pershing. Calliope as Arty (See StuH42) Pershing as a Assault Tank (See Tiger). What would Jumbo do in there? What would be its role? Pershing is already doing its role as a steel wall and infantry support therefore making Jumbo Obsolete. Therefore Giving it to Airborne which relies more to infantry than tanks doesn't sound exactly optimal but having it in Infantry to give Infantry a unlock of a heavy class slow vehicle to support their basic infantry.  

[Malgoroth]

Read back a bit. I talked about how Jumbo would fit in armor and wouldn't be OP. 33% extra penetration and 10% extra damage on a tank that has shit base stats against armor to begin with wouldn't make it OP. It'd make it only marginally better.

Tank reapers gives the jumbo 25% penetration which makes it only unreliable at killing tanks as opposed to straight bad. And HE wouldn't make it any scarier than a churchy croc *shudders*

Armor would make the jumbo perform its job better and become a force to be reckoned with, but that's ok. It wouldn't have tank reaper/heavy support/infantry doctrine's infantry buffs backing it up. It's that shit combined with a heavy tank that bring issues into the game. Not the heavy tank itself.

And if we're talking about infantry doctrine clearing MGs and surrounding infantry units, they have fire-up and the howitzer for that. It's not like they'd be totally gimped without the jumbo.

[NightRain]

You do realize that Jumbo would be Obsolete in Armor? Sherman with 76mm is not only faster but performs better vs Armor than Jumbo ever would. Thus Jumbo fits to Infantry as a ANTI-INFANTRY platform that is its role, its not meant for armor combat. Infantry support tank vs Support weapons and other infantry based platforms.

[spinn72]

Jumbo really doesn't make sense in armour, there are so many other tanks that do its job so much better.

[nugnugx]

Jumbo really doesn't make sense in armour, there are so many other tanks that do its job so much better.

Then it doesn't make sense at all

[Malgoroth]

Nightrain, did you bother to read back at my older post? Some people might prefer having 4 jumbos with double repair and doctrine buffs as opposed to two pershings. Or they might prefer a mix of both. Maybe they'd rather have shermans that can take massive punishment rather than the lighter, weaker armored sherman. It would bring variety to armor.

Just because a tank is an anti-infantry tank doesn't mean it NEEDS to be in infantry. By your logic sherman crocodile MG T1 should be infantry. The crocodile is meant for anti-infantry/anti-support combat but it has buffs in armor doctrine. Tank reapers buffs units against tanks... by your logic it shouldn't be in infantry doctrine.

And spinn... The jumbo performs the anti-infantry job better than normal shermans and crocodiles. Just because it isn't anti armor and there's better anti-armor tanks doesn't mean it doesn't fit in the armor doctrine.

[nugnugx]

If jumbo is meant to be AI only,  delete Jumbo and give Jumbos armor and speed to flame croc, it will be usefull.

Or just give a flamer instead of the sherman gun to jumbo

[NightRain]

Mal, by your logic Armor deserves everything that comes in a platform of a vehicle which really isn't the case. If armor gets both Jumbo's and pershings think about the hilarity of having them as a mix. First comes Jumbos then comes the Pershings. The thing is, it is already a powerful tank by its armor and it deserves to serve in the infantry as a infantry support vehicle. Wasn't the T3 called "Infantry Support" ? It is a Slow, fat Sherman with a 75mm, it rolls with moves as fast/slightly faster than a infantry squad. Eventually I must conclude that Sherman Jumbo is in its Rightful place with the Infantry as a support tank.

Plus the T1 Free MG is still retarded.

[Malgoroth]

No, my logic since this began was that infantry doctrine doesn't need a HEAVY tank. A 105 sherman with regular sherman armor would fit better. But a heavy tank that can shrug off shots from the front just doesn't fit in infantry doctrine. And the name given to the unlock is irrelevant to this discussion. It has no bearing on what we're talking about.

I don't see how following jumbos with a pershing is any different than following a pershing with another pershing.

The T1 free mg is retarded, yes. You will get no argument there from me.

[NightRain]

The only reason Jumbo pounces a lot of Shells its due to the Panther_skirts armor, if it was switched to Pershing/Churchill Armor there might be a good balance on it.

Jumbo originally was made for Infantry support, similar to the Tiger. Where does Armor need a Jumbo either way? So far what I've heard is that some would love to have a tank that pounces shells and ontop of it have nice ammount of buffs the Armor gives to the armor. However once you unlock the Pershing Jumbo becomes obsolete. I don't see it as a wise to give Armor a third armor unlock.

Infantry needs a heavy armor that can pounce shells to get rid of an MG42 or a PAK38. Armor already has the right vehicle called Pershing to do that thing. Infantry doesn't have a unit that can shrug off few anti tank gun shells and take out a MG.

[lionel23]

Agree with Nightrain above, giving Inf a 105mm sherman with the same armor as a sherman would make such a tank a useless unlock.  It would be more expensive (unless it was a half-off sherman) and I wouldn't bother purchasing a redudant unit if I can take a regular sherman which would fill the exact same role... which is a weak medium tank that wouldn't be able to get rid of that very MG42 or pak.

If anything, having its armor reverted back to a Pershing/Church might be the better way, but other than that hte unit is sorely needed for Infantry to get their job done.  Armor already has the Pershing (which is an infinitely better 'jumbo' than the jumbo), the T17 armored car and the calliope... and given the already limit on vehicles due to fuel... the only way I could justify armor getting it is if the Jumbo became a T1 unit and the T17 became non-doctrinal to all US companies like the staghound.  There just isn't any conceivable reason for armor to get 4+ vehicle unlocks and not be able to actually use all their vehicles, plus their infantry unlocks on top of that (shotgun engineers that is). All US infantry gets 'unique' would be the ranger and howie, which is pretty sad for an infantry-focused company that can't rely on competant vehicles to back them up for mainline assault (which the jumbo, as a T3 unit, does quite well).  The jumbo is no 'tiger' or 'king tiger', and I find it pretty balanced in that it's strictly an AI support tank, and not a super tank like a pershing.  My 2 cents.

[Malgoroth]

So because infantry doesn't have a heavy tank; they should get one? Commandos and Airborne don't have a heavy tank... why don't the devs throw one their way too?

Infantry does not NEED a heavy tank. So far no one here has been able to effectively argue otherwise. If you're having a hard time killing support weapons as infantry then you just might be hopeless. Fire-up and howies should suffice just fine. So far the only reasons I've heard for keeping it there essentially boil down to "It's easy mode. I don't really have to try. It can just shrug shots. Therefore it should stay".

Even though the unit itself isn't OP, the only thing the Jumbo does is skew infantry doctrines balance. In armor it wouldn't do so. It would add variety to the doctrine and provide a cheaper/more abundant alternative for people who don't want all their armor invested into 2 units. They would have more opportunities to get their money's worth AND it wouldn't be "obsolete". With the speed and repair buffs armor has, the Jumbo would be a beast. These are also points no one has effectively articulated a good response to.

[RikiRude]

If anything it would be cool if sherman jumbo was an unlock along with the calli.

Personally I don't see a problem with the jumbo in armor anyways, i also dont see the problem with the T1 that gives crocs an mg, i dont ever see anyone running crocs ever anyways.

but i think to help mals argument, at least from what i can tell, the infantry having the jumbo in a sense is comparable to if armor got some kind of elite infantry unlock. imagine a pershing having something along the lines of rangers backing it up.

As an armor player I'd totally take a jumbo, and depending on what T4 i went i'd have it take the place of my pershing most likely as well.

[Tymathee]

just thought i'd point this out for those who want churchill/pershing armor for jumbo, it actually makes the jumbo better vs axis weapons, all but the pak

[BigDick]

not for stug, pak, tiger, shrek if it gets pershing armor
and not for almost everything if it gets churchill armor


you can't fool us we got axis to rgds too

[Demon767]

not for stug, pak, tiger, shrek if it gets pershing armor
and not for almost everything if it gets churchill armor


you can't fool us we got axis to rgds too

har har

Infantry doctrine should never have got the Jumbo.

[skaffa]

Jumbo is good for Infantry doc, it complements well with Tank Reapers. It enables a new playstyle/strategy. Good AI (jumbo) combined with good AT (TR). I play this and I like it, without the Jumbo I prolly wont be interested in TR at all.

[DarkSoldierX]

Jumbo is fine, just that PaK38 sucks vs it.

and it should loose skirts me still dun like its free anti shrek buff.

[Scotzmen]

Just whittle down its health bit by bit, isn't that what your supposed to do against heavy tanks?

[spinn72]

Gah, I hate the damn jumbo, but i'll continue to use it until I get TR.
But then the company will only be three units, rifles w/ zooks, atg's and jumbos

It's the closest I can get to the good old days of rifles w/ zooks + callies