EiR:R Development and Progress

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[TheWindCriesMary]

There are people on these forums who have put it dozens if not hundreds of hours of their time into volunteering for this mod in addition to donating. I am one of those people, and there are a great many more who have done as much if not more. Those people have the right to speak up when they see something as fantastic as EiR being squandered or threatened by poor choices and shakey moderation/balancing.

Furthermore, 99% of the criticism that people level on these forums is not directed at EiRmod. It is almost universally agreed upon, atleast in my experience, that he has done superhuman things for this mod and that he has done so without expectation or desire for personal reward.  People respect EiRmod because he not only codes his ass off for the mod, but he will also listen when the community is upset and has a proven track record of personally responding to those concerns in a levelheaded and reasonable manner. To be perfectly honest, criticizing EiRMod is tantamount to insulting Jesus around here -- you just don't do it even if you aren't christian.

In terms of his team, however, things start to get a little more complex.

The EiR community has the right to get upset at certain things. For example, last month it became apparent that we had a balance team with way too much influence and power operating with zero oversight or integrity and even less accountability. Now in that case, guys like me go "wait a second, who do these clowns think they are fucking around with OUR mod like they own it." This is because, at the end of the day, this mod is OUR mod. Every person in this community who donates money and time to this mod has something invested in it. We care about it and we want it to succeed, so your damn right were going to raise hell when things are being done that directly prevent that.

Now you can say to yourself "people just want to hurt the mod so they complain and stir up shit.", and maybe in some people you might actually be right. But I promise you that 9 times out of 10 it's actually because those people care so much about the mod that it pisses them off when carelessness threatens to ruin it, or harms it.


I've spent dozens, probably over a hundred hours contributing to this mod. Mentoring new players, registered over 200 ventrillo accounts, writing press releases, doing the odd shoutcast, hell I even wrote 95% of the loading screen tips you see before a game comes up. I've also donated over a 100 dollars over the years. So I will be damned if I have someone tell me that myself, and people like me, don't have enough invested in this mod to speak out when we see it being abused.

EiRMod does his part, but it's the rest of the team that needs to shape up or ship out. If I had a dollar for every time I've suggested, or seen someone suggest a great idea that got  shot down with a "what's the point? That's too much work.... It's not worth the effort" by someone on the dev/mod team. My reasoning is, if your too jaded to do your job properly, move over and let people who aren't take over.

When your team gets too cynical to function, you get a new team. Stop sitting around with the old guard watching the ship sink when fresh blood is what the doctor ordered.

-Wind

[Demon767]

I'll just leave now.

[cloud234]

I think you guys need to chill and have a reasonable discussion.

Set a date for a meeting on ventrilo.

Submit the things/issues to be discussed, keep it succinct and straight to the point.

Have a agenda drawn up prior to the meeting, take down minutes and agreements after the meeting and post it on the forums as a an agreement on both sides.

Discuss more on principles rather than specific rules. Its much easier to apply general principles than to come up with a rule for every situation.

Give this a rest for a week or two and discuss again when everyone is more level headed.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Sorry if i pissed or insulted any of the devs or mods on this mod.
sure i am a little annoyed at the PE inf changes but i never intended to insult anyone or piss someone off(even smokaz) if i did.


But i must agree that you guys need to stop with the deadlines, they bring my hopes up a little to much everytime i see them and i allways get a little annoyed when i see they will not be kept

[BigDick]

imho there are differences between 3 types of criticism/no criticism

1. people who critic the mod/devs/team and leave the mod ... thats the kind of saying "everything is shit gtfo u failed"

2. people who critic the mod/dev team decisions and play this mod ... thats the  kind of saying "awesome work, awesome mod i got some ideas how to even improve it" sure it would be probably nice to give more positive motivation feedback but people tends to write into forums when they don't like something...their positive feedback is more by playing the mod because they like it (including the work of people especially eirmod)
thats probably not that satisfying for developement motivation

3. people who don't care about the mod
these group contribute absolutely nothing because even the 1th group deliver input what can be improved


generally i think there is a problem with information and coordination of mod team(?) and the community that starts with no one know who is active or inactive..no one knows the plans of development and  no one knows who is balancing this mod
thats why people probably overreact sometimes

if we look to the omg mod there are no secrets about the team
its more community driven where everyone knows who did what work and if someone gets inactive there will be a quick replacement

[spinn72]

BigDick raises an interesting point, there isn't enough transparency which leads to most of the community rage.

Look at Pgren changes, nobody had any problem with them at all, and all of a sudden in one patch they get extreme and radical changes that greatly affect every PE players company composition and play style. When asked why these changes were made, Unknown gave some decent reasons for why the change was made, and firesparks gave hints as to how to use the new pgrens more effectively, but none of them really posted a reason why a change was made, what forced a change etc. The only reasoning we got was from Unknown saying "Some might argue Pgrens were TOO effective vs BAR riflemen in their old state".

Also, as they've been called, "knee jerk" nerfs to units were often unjustified, with one dev simply responding to all the community members by saying "I have a vet 2 one so that means it's good" and then getting mad when people like AmPm looked into RGD's to show how underpowered it was, and still ultimately is.

[chefarzt]

Guys i love u

[LeoPhone]

but srsly which maps were added?

did u add my old villers bocage map? we already concluded that map was shit a year ago.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

but srsly which maps were added?

did u add my old villers bocage map? we already concluded that map was shit a year ago.

The maps include:

6p Ardennes Village

6p Abbotsford

6p Germany

6p Brest

6p Falise

6p Villers-Bocage

[fixed version] 6p Graveyard (Fixed those ugly "shot blocking" walls)



Front page

[tank130]

BigDick raises an interesting point, there isn't enough transparency which leads to most of the community rage.

Look at Pgren changes, nobody had any problem with them at all, and all of a sudden in one patch they get extreme and radical changes that greatly affect every PE players company composition and play style. When asked why these changes were made, Unknown gave some decent reasons for why the change was made, and firesparks gave hints as to how to use the new pgrens more effectively, but none of them really posted a reason why a change was made, what forced a change etc. The only reasoning we got was from Unknown saying "Some might argue Pgrens were TOO effective vs BAR riflemen in their old state".

Also, as they've been called, "knee jerk" nerfs to units were often unjustified, with one dev simply responding to all the community members by saying "I have a vet 2 one so that means it's good" and then getting mad when people like AmPm looked into RGD's to show how underpowered it was, and still ultimately is.

Can you show me where it is written that the devs need to present everything and justify everything to the community. You do not own this mod, you are not a partner in this mod. You are a user of the product. As a consumer, you opinion is valuable, but it sure as the hell doesn't mean the devs need to explain or have your permission to make a change.

That is the biggest problem with this community. Somewhere along the way the community got this self righteous attitude that nothing should be done with out their approval or without their consent.

Seriously people, get your heads out of your asses. We are to page 4 already and 80% of the content is people bitching!!!

It is not your "rights" to receive information prior to changes. It is not you "rights" to have changes justified and or explained to you. The balance team is non of your freaken business. The communities opinion of who should be on the balance team is pointless. The results they get are what they want opinions on. If this community were in charge, absolutely nothing would get done. Take this thread as an example. This post basically says stop bitching and whining so much, the devs are sick of it. The community responds with 4 pages of bitch , bitch, bitch.

You have a right as a consumer to know changes have been made. If you don't like the changes, feel free to let the dev team know, but try to be intelligent about it, not personally insulting. If the changes ruin it for you, feel free to shop somewhere else......

This community will not disappear because a few people leave. A lot of people have left in the past only to be replaced by more people. The community is small right now because there is a lack of development. There is a lack of development because the community has made the devs feel like it just isn't worth it anymore. The dev team is not actively seeking new members because the development is not advancing. If the community stops the bitch fest, the devs will get motivated again. When the devs get motivated, development will start back up.


From the very start of my thread, I have made a point of not pointing out individuals. It would be very easy for me to come on here and personally attack individuals for things they have said. In fact, I could list posts that I have made that are far from motivational to the devs. We are all guilty of getting on the witch hunt. Well, congratulations, our witch hunt has finally resulted in the witches leaving town.......


Wind: by the tone of your post, it appears you may have been a member of the dev team or at least very close. You have invested a lot of time here and probably feel you deserve something. I also know you do not have a large fan base here. You are very condescending and argumentative. In many cases, your opinions are correct, but your delivery loses the respect.

"EiRMod does his part, but it's the rest of the team that needs to shape up or ship out. If I had a dollar for every time I've suggested, or seen someone suggest a great idea that got  shot down with a "what's the point? That's too much work.... It's not worth the effort" by someone on the dev/mod team. My reasoning is, if your too jaded to do your job properly, move over and let people who aren't take over. " Wind.

I think it is time for you to take your own advice. You appear very jaded and I feel your negativity is a burden on the community. You and I have a lot in common. We have both invested a lot in this mod, but have not seen the promised results. But where we differ on this subject: I have chosen to continue to secure my investment, while you have decided to weaken it.

I am not pointing you out as a personal attack. I have used your post as an example of how a few people in the community may feel. But let's not confuse a few people with the whole community. The loud voices of a few are not the voices of many.

"Now in that case, guys like me go "wait a second, who do these clowns think they are fucking around with OUR mod like they own it." This is because, at the end of the day, this mod is OUR mod." Wind.

Once again, another good example of the opinions of few community members. Actually, probably a lot of community members. At the beginning of the day, and at the end of the day, this mod is NOT your mod. Never has been, and more than likely, never will be. This mod belongs to one guy, the rest of us are just the users. Granted there are a small number of people who volunteer their time to help with development. With out those people, we would see little to no development. But the point is; this mod does not belong to the community.

This mod is given to all of us FREE OF CHARGE. This entire mod is volunteer work. No one in this community, including people who have donated thousands of dollars, are entitled to anything. We do not have the right to fuck all.....

This mod belongs to EiRMoD. It does not belong to the community. So stop acting like it.

[Spartan_Marine88]

This mod is given to all of us FREE OF CHARGE. This entire mod is volunteer work. No one in this community, including people who have donated thousands of dollars, are entitled to anything. We do not have the right to fuck all.....

This mod belongs to EiRMoD. It does not belong to the community. So stop acting like it.

Those who have volunteered their time and effort ARE entitiled to an opinion, as they are the ones who have helped keep this mod alive, as it does belong in some regards to those who have helped shape it into what it has become.

Yes EIRRMod has invested alot of time and effort into and im very grateful for his work, but Tank your posts seem like a big FUCK YOU to everyone else that has contributed to the mod

[PonySlaystation]

Tank, while everyone else in this thread was able to answer in a calm and friendly manner, you pretty much act like the people you say are so horrible.

[AmPM]

Due to constant insults and criticisms directed at the development team, they have essential lost interest on further development of the mod.

Do you blame them? Countless hours of work put into a mod that is completely free of charge for you to play, is rewarded by endless threads of bitching, whining, criticizing, and general insults.

There are a large number of people on these forums who act like they deserve to have a say in what happens in this mod. You act like the employees and the CEO have joint control over the corporation. Seriously, who the fuck do you think you people are? If you don't like the mod, then fuck off..... If you have a new idea you feel could be a benefit, then by all means, pass it along. But stop insulting the hell out of the people trying to do their best.

Here's what I think needs to happen to try and save this mod. Besides the obvious need for some thank yous and compliments, it's time to weed out the bullshit. I am talking about the members who continue to insult, troll, grief, and generally just piss off the rest of the community.

For example. If someone posts an insulting or criticizing comment; the mods need to delete it immediately and send a warning. I really don't give a shit if you feel it goes against your freedom of speech. Your freedom of speech is destroying this mod. We all know who the worst offenders are, but because they have been here so long, there is belief they should be aloud to say anything they want. Well, I couldn't disagree more. There is a saying: "familiarity breeds contempt". That is what is happening in these forums and it needs to stop.

Some people will come on here and say things like, " the dev's need to be able to handle constructive criticism". I say bullshit!! Until you have to layout some money for this mod, STFU and be thankful for what you have. Again, it doesn't mean you can't bring ideas to the table, but you have no right to criticize what's there.

It just make me sick how many people come on here and bitch, and bitch, and bitch, all the while contributing absolutely nothing. You act like little spoiled brats.

I respectfully request the mods to start bringing the hammer down. For the sake of saving this mod, start being moderating assholes. Will we loose some people? damn right we will, and those will be the people we need to get rid of. Will people be pissed off? Damn right they will; but fuck em!! If they don't like it, they can go find some other free mod to bitch about.

If the mods don't have time or are uncomfortable being more strict, then I will gladly volunteer my time.

This mod belongs to EiRMod and should be developed and run as he wants, not you. If he does it wrong and fails, that's his problem. He sure as the fuck doesn't need you insulting him and his team.

Tank

The problem with this mod is simple, lack of leadership and shared goal. Outside of EIRRMod the dev team should only be there to move the mod along a path leading to the finished product, not to add their own thought on what the finished product should be.

The mod is designed by committee, and we all know how that goes.

Without a plan and a preset "This is how the mod should be" statement to follow, we just keep running in circles.

Tank130 is wrong, people lose interest in development because it's a side project/hobby. Which means just about everything else comes first (which is the way it should be).

Also, just remember, at the end of the day throwing money at something for no reason doesn't make you better than everyone else, it just makes you foolish.

[tank130]

Those who have volunteered their time and effort ARE entitiled to an opinion, as they are the ones who have helped keep this mod alive, as it does belong in some regards to those who have helped shape it into what it has become.

Yes EIRRMod has invested alot of time and effort into and im very grateful for his work, but Tank your posts seem like a big FUCK YOU to everyone else that has contributed to the mod

Spartan, there is a big difference between having an opinion and feeling you own something.
I have said in everyone of my posts in this thread that the opinions of the users is important. The dev team needs to hear the opinions of the users to ensure their  product is being produced in a way that continues it's use. However, insulting people is counter productive.

My posts are not a big fuck you to everybody else. It is the consistent bitching and whining that is a big FUCK YOU to the dev team.

When you first purchased CoH, you could honestly say you owned the game. But did that ever give you the right to tell the developers how to build it? Would they accept you constantly sending them emails telling them they sucked and every person that worked for them sucked? Do you really think your opinion on the game shaped how it was created? Did they send us all a list of the balance advisory board; or ask our permission on a change; or explain in great detail why they decided to make a change?
You paid money and actually own the game, but have absolutely no rights over it. Yet members of the community come here to a free mod and expect just that!!

I use myself as an example to help you all understand, but some of you think I am trying to say fuck you. I am not. I am nothing here, I am just a user of the mod like the rest of you. When I cam here I did not feel I have a right to the mod or any kind of ownership. Even after I gave EiRMoD 2000.00 to buy a new computer, I still have no rights or ownership to this mod. Don't you get that? Stop thinking you owned or shaped this mod. None of us did. We play it, we give our opinions. The dev team takes that information and sometimes uses it and sometime not.

But here is one thing I know always works. If you support the devs, make them feel like people really do care, they will continue to work on the mod and make it even better.

Spartan, I am going to use you as an example, but this is not personal.
If I said, " Spartan, are you a fucking idiot. I can't believe you just did that. You are an idiot". Would you still be motivated to listen to me and my opinions? Would you still be motivated to continue working on the project you were creating for me?
I could be wrong, but I don't think you would. I think you would say," fuck this, this guy doesn't appreciate anything I do for him".

However, if I said," Spartan, the change you made does not appear to be working correctly. I find it very difficult to use and appears to make my units weaker. If we changed "x" I think it will work better". This post would require you to think first and not rage post. It would also, more than likely, elicit a positive response or explanation from the guy who made the change. It does not guarantee a response, but it keeps the dev motivated to continue.

What really amazes me; Members of this community think nothing of insulting the devs and continually bitching about the mod. But I make one thread about criticizing the communities behavior and everybody is feeling insulted.

One guy puts up a post and the community is insulted. Posts go up everyday insulting the devs and we think nothing of it. Am I really the only guy who sees a problem with this?

[BigDick]

tank i agree with you in saying that the community has no right to demand something but (and i borrow a pic from an other thread)

this:



is the mod without the community

eirmod and the mod team probably does not need the community but the mod does
same as the mod need eirmod and a dev team to make progress and to exist

[tank130]

I too have been in the launcher when no one is there. I don't play much because the mod has become stagnant and incomplete. If the devs start putting up some new content, I will be excited to play again. I think that is true for a lot of people.

But first the devs need to be motivated to continue. This is what a few of you fail to recognize. These devs do not get paid for this. They do not need members to keep their mod alive so they can live. They do this for the enjoyment they get when everybody loves their work. Take that away and you have nothing.

The devs owe you nothing. They gave you an awesome FREE MOD to play anytime you want. It is us that owe them something.


AMPM,

Why did you stop making maps? From personal conversations I have had with you on vent, it is because nobody plays them and they just bitch about them. Why would you not be motivated to continue and be better? Some people play / played your maps, don't you owe them something. I know I have played your maps. I demand you make more. Even if I tell you daily they suck, you owe it to me to make more.
 People might loose interest in development because it is just a hobby. People will loose interest if all they hear is insults and criticism.


"Also, just remember, at the end of the day throwing money at something for no reason doesn't make you better than everyone else, it just makes you foolish." AmPm

I am going to assume this was targeted at me. If not, my bad.
I have thrown a considerable amount of money at this mod; But please don't ever think I just did that because I am a nice guy and did not hope for something in return. Because I am just a member of the community just like everybody else, I had hopes, but not expectations.
I hoped that the Dev team would be motivated to increase development and get a warmap out. The warmap would be a direct benefit to me. I love this mod and feel the warmap is a much needed addition. I really want to see the warmap.

I never throw money at something with out reason my friend, that would truly be foolish. Almost as foolish as insulting the people who create things for your benefit for free.....

Look, lets get a couple of things straight here. I suck as a player; that we all (or most ) know. I can not spend hours a day here getting better, and I can't change the fact that my age makes the reflexes a little slower. Twenty years from now you will all know what I am talking about.
I am not a multi millionaire, but I do have a successful business that makes me some  disposable income.
CoH is the second computer game I have ever owned. The first was Panzer General. ( oh the memories....lol) I normally work 12 to 14 hrs a day and have very little time for games & hobbies. I love the hell out of this game and it is one of my very few play time activities.

So it only makes sense for me to invest in something that brings me as much enjoyment as it does. But in the end, the mod belongs to someone else. I can only hope to motivate them to continue, but I have no right to tell them what to do. No body does.
Nope, not even you people who have volunteered your time. Nobody from the Dev team has ever promised anything in return for your investment. Whether that be time or money.

Is it so wrong for me to ask the community to support the dev team instead of insulting them? Is me asking that really trying to put myself above you?

I think there are members of the community who know they have been complete assholes to the Dev team. I think those people are starting to feel guilty and may lash out at me in defense. I'm fine with that, just remember to give credit to the Devs for the hard work they put into supplying you with a FREE MOD.

[LeoPhone]

Spartan, there is a big difference between having an opinion and feeling you own something.
I have said in everyone of my posts in this thread that the opinions of the users is important. The dev team needs to hear the opinions of the users to ensure their  product is being produced in a way that continues it's use. However, insulting people is counter productive.

My posts are not a big fuck you to everybody else. It is the consistent bitching and whining that is a big FUCK YOU to the dev team.

When you first purchased CoH, you could honestly say you owned the game. But did that ever give you the right to tell the developers how to build it? Would they accept you constantly sending them emails telling them they sucked and every person that worked for them sucked? Do you really think your opinion on the game shaped how it was created? Did they send us all a list of the balance advisory board; or ask our permission on a change; or explain in great detail why they decided to make a change?
You paid money and actually own the game, but have absolutely no rights over it. Yet members of the community come here to a free mod and expect just that!!

when you bought CoH you actually did get the right to tell the developers how to build it, or at least partially. since players would discover imbalances in the game which could stop them from playing the game. forcing relic to patch.

in EIR it goes much further than that. the mod is still in development and we are basically betatesters.

[nugnugx]

But first the devs need to be motivated to continue.

I don't need motivation for something that I like, usualy mods are done by people who like what they do and enjoy modding , that's why they would start doing it in the first place.

If someone needs motivation from other people to continue his modding i seriously would reconsider his place as a modder in the first place.


We - the community , are here in the first place because fldash had an idea and loved to mod this for the time he did, not the other way around , community was not here before the main developer

Blaming the community for anything is a big mistake and shows only immaturity. It's like a parent blaming his child that he is an alcoholic.

[Killer344]

Fldash basically gave a shit about most people said and wtfbanned the ones who annoyed him... we could go back to that if you want, I would.

[tank130]

when you bought CoH you actually did get the right to tell the developers how to build it, or at least partially. since players would discover imbalances in the game which could stop them from playing the game. forcing relic to patch.

in EIR it goes much further than that. the mod is still in development and we are basically betatesters.

And your input and that of the communities is greatly appreciated. What is not appreciated is the constant insults and negative criticism given by members of the community.

Please keep in mind. No one here bought EiR:R. So while purchasing CoH may bring some partial rights in your mind, you can not compare it to EiR.

Are you arguing in favor of the right to insult the developers of EiR:R? Why is it so important to insult them. Does it make you feel more important than them, or make you feel better about yourself?
If you point out a bug or major imbalance, no one is going to feel they have been insulted. But telling them the mod sucks or the changes they made recently suck, or saying they don't give a shit is going to insult them.

Members in this community are so absorbed in thinking they have a right to bitch about a FREE MOD, they have lost sight of actually supporting the people that bring it to you.