EIRR Doesn't Solve Company of Heroes' Underlying Problem

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[panthers17nfl]

This is not a troll post or something I've written out of pure rage. I spent some time thinking about this, and so I hope the ideas and complaints I present make some amount of sense.

Problem: Backbone Units Seen In WW2 Serve Little Purpose Here.
By backbone units, I refer to the simple units - the ones new guys would assume are important. I will use Riflemen as an example. You would expect that, especially with an Infantry Doctrine, Riflemen would serve an important role, namely, being the backbone of any joint operation. However, the combat capabilities of Riflemen, Volksgrenadiers, etc. are all hindered due to the fact that they are simply countered by nearly everything and serve little purpose.

What Purpose Do They Serve?
In my opinion, these backbone infantry units serve two purposes: fighting against other backbone units, and also taking out defenseless targets. The latter can range from, in Vanilla, a Munitions point, or even a defenseless mortar or AT gun. This role is also done much better by other units, such as snipers, light vehicles, other mortars, etc. So backbone units can't even do this role right. How about fighting against other backbone units? Well, you could use them for that. But: Tanks, HMG's, and Mortars (selectively) all perform this role much better. So out of both of the roles that backbone units are (in my opinion) intended to be performing, they are not a good choice for either.

So panthers, you think Rifle Spamming Should Be a Pro Tactic?
No. Think about that in real war. That is a horrible idea, unless the entire other army is composed of backbone units as well. Incidentally, like I said earlier, you would still be much better off using something other than Backbone units. I would prefer it if having a decent amount of BU's were a good strategy.

Wait! I Found One Role Backbone Units Do Well!
The one thing I can think of that is a job BU's can do well is covering other special units, aka HMG's and Mortars. Even then, using another HMG, or even a light-medium vehicle is a much better defender.

How Do We Make BU's More Powerful Then?
The main goal in making them more powerful would be to make it so that they aren't entirely useless. This can be achieved in a multitude of ways. First, I would enjoy seeing an increase in their durability, whether it be through more HP, more suppression resistance, etc. This would make it so that they don't become cannon fodder in every single engagement like you may be seeing. Increasing their deadliness at long range would be nice. Don't argue by saying how a full veterancy blob of Riflemen is too OP, because if that's your argument, stop using Grens with Shrecks . At long range where you would expect rifles to excel, they still have difficulty doing harm to most units. A single squad of Riflemen vs. a squad of Volks could take minutes. How realistic that is, I'm not sure. Point being, enhanced long range abilities of BU's with rifles would be very helpful.

What Does This Entail?
Hopefully, with some of the suggested BU buffs, or other buffs that people of higher knowledge may find better to use, we can expect an increase in the versatility and usefulness of the classic units that should be important in any army.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWW

well tbh diffrent people have diffrent ponints of veive and playstiles.

PS: Men of war is on sale if you dont like this.

[Hicks58]

Panther might have something of a point going on. Apart from recrewing or being used when uber doctrine buffed, non upgraded standard infantry serve little purpose other than to eat more lethal rounds than they put out. Which is more or less anything.

I'd wait for somebody with an ounce of credibility to say something on this though.

[Mysthalin]

Riflemen and volks DO serve an important role. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't fought me on my volks account! They can recrew, they are plentiful, they are cheap and they are versatile - being able to do pretty much everything except NOT VERY WELL.

They are the ultimate in "cheapskate tactics" - where you defeat the enemy not by the sheer firepower or capabilities of a high-investment unit, but by utilising the simple concept of diversification. You simply spread your assets by buying loads of the cheap, yet versatile unit - and then attempt to use each of them to their best of abilities - however, not being particularly flustered about the loss of any of these "investments" frankly because they are so cheap and you have tons of them. In the case of using KCH, tanks or light vehicles - if you lose that one unit, it's a big dent to your company composition. In the case of losing a volks squad? Nah, it's not a big deal.


As mainline infantry in non-specialised companies, where they are merely a supportive unit - they fulfill their job perfectly at being supporting units. They cover an HMGs flank, they disallow that puma to flank your ATG by popping a sticky at it, and they recrew that mortar to pop down some smoke rounds for your rangers to run up and grenade an HMG. Oh, and they cap. They do their job, and they do it for cheap. But, precisely because of that - don't expect them to do their job particularly well.

[Mister Schmidt]

Panthers, I like you, I like your thinking here, so I'm gonna be the one to say this before you get some douchefag saying it, but never ever include anything to do with realism when commenting on stuff about the mod, as it has literally no effect whatsoever.

Other than that, good post

[panthers17nfl]

As mainline infantry in non-specialised companies, where they are merely a supportive unit - they fulfill their job perfectly at being supporting units. They cover an HMGs flank, they disallow that puma to flank your ATG by popping a sticky at it, and they recrew that mortar to pop down some smoke rounds for your rangers to run up and grenade an HMG. Oh, and they cap. They do their job, and they do it for cheap. But, precisely because of that - don't expect them to do their job particularly well.

And yet another MG can cover an MG very well, as can a far-off sniper, a tank, light vehicle, etc. BU don't fulfill any role very well. I do understand your argument though: they are cheap and weak, so why should they be strong?

They are, in my opinion, supposed to be the Backbone Units. The core of any balanced company. Not the weak cannon fodder who's only purpose is to recrew a Mortar (because THAT is a weapon that IS important :\, rather than being riflemen). Core-Backbone as in: They are the workhorse, not the ants who's only strength is in the ability to capture or recrew to take up the role that a more important unit does.

What COULD help balance Backbone units more, if people don't want them buffed, is to increase the cost of some other powerful units. Make HMG's pricey enough that they need to be used more tactically AND aren't the easy 1-step counter to an infantry regiment.

[Poppi]

I have my view of what is the underlying problem of COH.

Like i really dont like how some PE 4 man squads take about 60 rounds point blank to "hurt" them.  Or the idea of putting a MG down a main avenue approach isnt actually that useful. And personally i dont why they went with the Axis theme of everything is tougher/expensive including inf. Tanks ok they were tough ass armor in WW2. But steel plated soldiers too? Reminds me of DOW2. Guardsman vs Space Marines.

Ya there is Men of War for your realism, but i think it goes too far. Especially with tanks. AT guns and tanks can shoot half way across a map. I got a tough ass tiger with inf support and boom dead tiger one hit, dont know where. But i do like the inf tactics alot more. Standard riflemen can take on the more expensive units. And a mg is deadly. But since everything is fragile across the board it looses its character, in some ways.

I would like to see a half way point between the two games. Takes more than 1-2 hits to kill a tank but less than 30.

[Mysthalin]

I think you may not be entirely familiar with the concept of the backbone unit.

It does not mean that it should be better at everything than anything else within the company - they are merely the mainline units that are able to do pretty much anything - just nothing very well. You take the more specialised units for these jobs - and in this sence, the dynamic between the specialised units and the mainline infantry is pretty much perfect.

And, yet again - you've not seen me play on my volks account. Companies that use the mainline infantry in the way you describe are not only plausible - they have been used before to great effect - so great, actually, that they've recently been nerfed. And there was good reason for that to happen.

EDIT: Poppi, so you mean - like right now where tanks take 4-8 hits to die? Yeah, seems we're at that halfway point.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Hmm, if any of this were true, Enkk and his 2 allies would not have been able to spank my and my allies forces with over 90 pops worth of rifles and a few atgs and m10s

[Poppi]

EDIT: Poppi, so you mean - like right now where tanks take 4-8 hits to die? Yeah, seems we're at that halfway point.

thanks for reading only the last sentence of a post, and replying to that. Good etiquette

[Demon767]

What myst said about Volks and Spartan stated about the rifle based armies are exactly correct.

i have no idea where this thread came from or what made you think of it so highly that it affected it EIRR somehow. all your points are wrong unfortunately.

[AmPM]

thanks for reading only the last sentence of a post, and replying to that. Good etiquette

thanks for reading only the last sentence of a post, and replying to that. Good etiquette

I think I can just use your own quote to talk about your quote....

[Jokee]

Like the man said, reality has nothing to do with Company of Heroes. If it would, it would be a shitton of infantry battles, tanks would die of one well aimed hit, you get the picture.

What I understand about your post is that the infantry is supossed to be the actual army, like it was in WW2. Apart from several important tank battles, most fights were fought by infantry.

And I understand your frustration with those BU's. My Airborne company always gets so messed up in battles because them riflemen and to a certain degree even the paratroopers just cant take anything...

What I would like to see more of is increased deadliness of charging. I mean, when you have a squad of riflemen in heavy cover...lets say... stone fence...and you have infantry squad...or squads, charging them across and open field, these charging units should get some double negative cover because after all, they are charging against a prepared position without cover.

Also...it is rather refreshing to read a tought out argument rather than the usual "OMG BAR IS SO OP! UNFAIR!"

[lionel23]

I find there is plenty of infantry fighting and nothing really needs to be changed.  What determines companies is how every person builds them.  My companies (axis and allies) all run either 15 squads of elties or 30 squads of mainstay infantry (and no, volks are not mainstay, I run 30 gren squads).  Each of these companies runs at most 2-3 vehicles... so I don't know what the complaint about in nothing seeing a lot of infantry... is that the problem here?

Look say at Puddins mass G43 company, puts my mass ranger company to shame, though I can do some damage with my suicide riflemen company (which unless you're going mass BARs on all of them, I personally don't think they make good mainline infantry).  Airborne are definitely not designed to be mainline due to how their armor works... and Brits well shit man they got the best of all worlds for their guys ^^

[shockcoil]

Are you high. Riflemen are king in both vCOH and EIR, there are few things more powerful than a well executed riflespam and it requires literally 2 units, riflemen and ATGs.

[NightRain]

Riflemen are standard infantry. Give them pineapples and rofl around the battlefield. Depending on the level of micro Riflemen are in fact good at what they do tbfh. Similar to volks, they get the job done! Recrew, capture, attack, defend and build defences (Inf coy for Rofls).

[Unkn0wn]

Stay civil guys, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[Mysthalin]

But what if their opinion is wrong?

[Unkn0wn]

You can't argue with someone in a civil manner?

[MittinsKittens]

But what if their opinion is wrong?

Then you tell them nicely why they're wrong?
Not that hard really…