Sherman Jumbo

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[panzerman]

KT mg does nothing, jumbo mg is really good vs inf.

this is how it goes, jumbo beats everything upto a P4 even without T4 TR... is perfect counter to paks and 50mm if it gets close enough which should be the other way around...but currently i have not seen them being overly OP although i have not seen many people use them atm.

[DarkSoldierX]

KT mg does nothing, jumbo mg is really good vs inf.

this is how it goes, jumbo beats everything upto a P4 even without T4 TR... is perfect counter to paks and 50mm if it gets close enough which should be the other way around...but currently i have not seen them being overly OP although i have not seen many people use them atm.

Tiger,Pershing,Churchhill,Jagdpanther, all heavies can easily counter ATG's assuming they got close enough without taking too much damage to be uncost effective.

The Wher MG vs US Mg is valid though, US MG does a great bit more, but don't exaggerate to say that KT mg does nothing.

And as far as the Jumbo beating everything upto a P4, A hetzer has 37.5% chance of penetrating a sherman(excluding range factor)
And a sherman jumbo has 29.6% chance of penetrating a hetzer, with -15% acc vs it.

Im sure my hetzer can cost effectively defeat the jumbo, with little fear of it flanking my hetzer with its speed. And if you say "wut if he has TR" What if I have APCR rounds? That blows the buff to it out of the water. Oh and hetzer cost less than a P4.

[RikiRude]

I feel like axis will never get used to fighting any allied armor tougher than a regular sherman 

Trust me, if you have 2 paks on the field, it will always be enough to scare off a jumbo before it does too much. Just dont expect to scare it off with 1 pak, or a pak and a shreck. Use team work and you should be able to make short order of them.

[RikiRude]

Jumbo repair has gone up to 60mu, was 50mu before. Ninja balance change!

[Mysthalin]

I thought most of the penetration issues with axis wep vs. panther were fixed.

And as far as the "forced to bring out heavier AT like pak40/panther" comment, well thats exactly what allies have to do, bring out that 17p, firefly, AP rounds 57(which frankly cost more than a pak40), and quite a few M10's.

Well they weren't.

Now, the only pop-efficient counter to the 13 popcap jumbo is the pak40. The pak38, in all essence - is simply not capable of being even a remotely efficient counter due to the it can not penetrate the jumbo with even the remotest of frequencies - so fundamentally you can only realistically use one single doctrine out of 6 to have a pop-efficient counter(you could argue that the flak 88 is also pop-efficient, but that's a special case due to the complete lack of mobility).

Pop-inefficient counters include the Panther, Tiger, Jagdpanther and King Tiger. Why the heck should one be relegated to using at the very least 450 FU and 14 popcap (upwards to 680+ FU and 18 popcap) to counter this 380 FU 13 popcap allegedly anti-infantry monstrosity(and, yet again, it's more than just "able" to beat P4s)?

You can attempt to cry about how one needs to use the Firefly (320 FU, 12 popcap, non-doctrinal) or AP rounds (a mere 40 mu addition to the regular ATG? Hardly awe-inspiring), or the M10 (lol 190 FU 10 pop) to beat off the 545 FU Tiger, or the 600+ Super-heavies (all of which cost more popcap) - but the simple fact of the matter is that all these units that the allies can use are cheaper than the axis options, while the unit that needs to be countered is more expensive in every way for the axis player.

Pound-for-pound, unless you are fielding pak40s or using the heavy tank-based AT - you will require more AT to fend off a triple jumbo company than it will to fight off a double pershing one, which is just bloody silly.

[Poppi]

wow complaining about Jumbos armor?
Its fine. God forbid allies have tough armor, guess axis dont like the idea of attacking rear armor? Its cheaper b/c its mostly just a slow moving piece of armor that absorbs hits. More of distraction than anything. Doesnt have major splash, or AP rounds to destroy heavy tanks. So dont compare it to tigers or panthers or KT or Jagds.

To take away its usefulness against pak38s, and lesser AT weapons is probably taking away its main purpose of the unit. Its a slow moving, slow turreted medium damage unit.

[RikiRude]

went up against a skirted p4 today, and were going head to head, I have operation overlord so my jumbo shoots faster. jumbo will obviously win, but will be brought down to less than half health. of course if either side brings an atg, jumbo will still win.

But I'll say what I always hear axis say, but it's a T3 unit!!!

I will say this as well. jumbo beats P4 as it should, its over 100fu more than P4 and one pop cap more.

So you are complaining that you have to bring out a panther, which in turn is less than 100fu more than a jumbo and 1 more pop cap than it.

Also watching the P4 and jumbo fight was painful. they sat there for so much time swapping shots doing such little damage, you can't say jumbo vs p4, there will always be time for support to make its way up.

If any balance was necessary for it maybe a slight increase to the fu.

[Mister Schmidt]

wow complaining about Jumbos armor?
Its fine. God forbid allies have tough armor, guess axis dont like the idea of attacking rear armor? Its cheaper b/c its mostly just a slow moving piece of armor that absorbs hits. More of distraction than anything. Doesnt have major splash, or AP rounds to destroy heavy tanks. So dont compare it to tigers or panthers or KT or Jagds.

To take away its usefulness against pak38s, and lesser AT weapons is probably taking away its main purpose of the unit. Its a slow moving, slow turreted medium damage unit.

No, the problem is not the way it is designed, the problem is that the ARMOUR for it is completely wrong. It has panther_skirt armour. Axis AT is not designed to penetrate Panther armour, that is the problem. It needs to have Pershing armour again, it was fine before when it was like that.

[RikiRude]

wait, maybe it should be the reverse! maybe axis at should be made SO IT CAN penetrate panther armor. I mean, doesn't that mean when allies capture axis weapons they won't do proper damage to panthers?

[TheVolskinator]

Riki drives a valid point; an old bug in BKmod was captured HMG42s killing KTs and panthers in a single burst thanks to the wierd damage tables.

IMO, just give it pershing armor. The end. Pershing armor is fine, it works, its good, etc etc etc. Just do it.

/thread?

[Mysthalin]

wait, maybe it should be the reverse! maybe axis at should be made SO IT CAN penetrate panther armor. I mean, doesn't that mean when allies capture axis weapons they won't do proper damage to panthers?

This wouldn't be particularly bad either - it's just that the only real issue for when allies fight the panther_skirts armour is when they recrew the pak and get a panzershrek, which would be a relatively fast fix on it's own accord.

Fixing every single axis weapon that can fire upon the jumbo, though - is a completely different story and will require far more time and effort. Reverting to Pershing, or an improved Churchil armour variant is simply the least-cost method of achieving relative balance for the unit.

[Poppi]

No, the problem is not the way it is designed, the problem is that the ARMOUR for it is completely wrong. It has panther_skirt armour. Axis AT is not designed to penetrate Panther armour, that is the problem. It needs to have Pershing armour again, it was fine before when it was like that.

oh sorry got ya.
Could it have pershing armor, but high hp? Cause i think the pershing tank doesnt fill the role as a good bullet magnet. If the Jumbo was a tougher version than that, that would be fine.

 sometimes i think in all COH complexity they just ended up shooting themselves in the foot.  I remember COH v1.0, the good ole days.  I think units were more black/white. Unit A does this, unit B does this. Now its like Unit A can do this only if .... and when... to only certain units.

[brn4meplz]

hey 1.0 was good stuff. it was 1.71 I couldn't stand.

All the Abilities in CoH were hilarious 1.0-1.4.(except Sherman smoke... not so funny for Axis)

[Demon767]

The problem lies in American ATGs having far more effective AP round against Axis armor.

Thus when the Jumbo comes rolling along the Axis are all like, FUCK I WISH I HAD AP ROUNDS TO FUCK OVER HEAVY ARMOR

[lionel23]

That's where heavy tanks, Pak40s, ambushing shreks and paks, and the 88mm comes in.  I never have problems fighting the jumbo or even 2-3 pershings on the field... not when I got 3-4 88mm deployed ^^

[Mysthalin]

I never have problems fighting the jumbo or even 2-3 pershings on the field... not when I got 3-4 88mm deployed ^^

I don't think anyone has problems with tanks when they have 24-32 popcap of pure, immobile AT deployed -.-

[lionel23]

Works great for my defensive company, great against inf too with their cover shields and a sandbag wall to defend against arty.  My 88s usually get more infantry kills than my entire army anyway.

[Mysthalin]

Works great for my defensive company, great against inf too with their cover shields and a sandbag wall to defend against arty.  My 88s usually get more infantry kills than my entire army anyway.

*palmface* when a facepalm just won't do.

[lionel23]

Vet 2 88 baby, 15 infantry kills a game and usually a tank or two ^^

Best stand off was a full health rifle squad losing to an 88 at point blank range, he failed to hurt the crew and the gun manages to get 4 shots off wiping out the squad.

I can't wait for the heroic armor on the crew, and especially more life on the 88 itself (if I read the T4 correctly and it applies to the gun and not the crew).

[Smokaz]

Hunt, HUNT !