A new guy's perspective

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[Migi]

bump

[|-|Cozmo|-|]

this argument can go two ways, the cp thing is nice, but taking away too many rewards will hinder the +'s for continuious play. but TBH i dont expect a large influx of players untill the Mod reaches beta with war map etc, then the persistency can really kick in and you can flex your modding might to the world

[salan]

I'll spill some beans here.  We have plans to develop a ranking system nearly identical to the one used in the Relic Online ladders.  Rewards for matches will be based upon the difficulty level of your opponent.[/quit]

Unless this equates to them gaining more for losing, it ultimately is nothing.. i haven't lost a game to a new player ever, all it would do is remove them from playing me, or me from playing them.  Unless they are lucky enough to get into a 3 on 3 or larger of course.. 2 on 2's and 1 on 1's will become non existant between the ranks..

In addition, we will most likely give minimum of 1 CP/day no matter how many battles you fight, even if you don't fight any.   New players joining the battle will get x number of CP where x is the number of days the war has been in progress.

1.8 started around august 15th to 18th, as far as I can tell by the message boards, they reset  the war a week or so later after letting us fiddle with 100 cps for a testing period.  so say like august 23rd or something.. now this war we have been in has been going on from then.. that is aproximately 22 days.

if you gave a new player starting today 1 cp for each day this war has been going, ontop of the 10 he starts with, he will still not be able to buy a tier 4 in any one of the doctrines that i can see. 32 doctrine abilities at this point ...  EVERSINGLE tier 4 is 22cp or >, there is 1 tier 3 at 12, the rest are all 14 - 19..

I don't know what the GASPING is about, but they still will have the exact same problem they have now.. having a tier 4 still is not making a company competitive.  I found that by testing my new defensive company by going straight for a tier 4, i was STILL very much at the whim of everyone else.  I find now that I am filling in my tier 2's and tier 3's on the side, that is when my company starts getting BEEFY...

Furthermore, details on complex functions like TAV, resupply, availability will not be made available.  We will only mentions that there are systems in place to control these things.  It's not important for our players to know how they work, only that they are present.

That's all I can say at this time.

as any 'company' standard, you should becareful with your intellectual ownership i guess ...

Mission accomplished?

what has it accomplished with this message?

GASP

what are you gasping about anyways

[|-|Cozmo|-|]

i feel you are trying too hard to make this current set up in *alpha* look like a final product to "sell", which is what it is not! (no offence i wanted to stat that). i suggest trying to ballance the RPG side of it after the main aspect (warmap) is put in, since the RPG part most probibly will play out completely differently.

just my thoughts, ignore if i was too harsh.

[fldash]

salan, is your post suppose to be constructive?  It's not.  You offer no alternatives, only complaints.

You apparently think that starting them 30+ CP is the same as giving them 10.  Apparently, if you start late, the CP costs on everything triple and you won't be able to get anything but what you would have got with your original 10. 

How can you not see that this will help them.  Sure, it may not put them on a complete level playing field, but that's not fair to those who have been playing for a while either.  It's a bonus.  It helps them.  Help is what they need.

I guarantee a player coming in who gets 1 CP for every day the war has been going on and has some skill is going to be able to be competitive and possible beat players that have a T4.

[salan]

salan, is your post suppose to be constructive?  It's not.  You offer no alternatives, only complaints.

You apparently think that starting them 30+ CP is the same as giving them 10.  Apparently, if you start late, the CP costs on everything triple and you won't be able to get anything but what you would have got with your original 10. 

How can you not see that this will help them.  Sure, it may not put them on a complete level playing field, but that's not fair to those who have been playing for a while either.  It's a bonus.  It helps them.  Help is what they need.

I guarantee a player coming in who gets 1 CP for every day the war has been going on and has some skill is going to be able to be competitive and possible beat players that have a T4.

no, its meant to offer you a differing perspective on what it will actually accomplish ...  its a good idea to think of all sides of an argument when you are trying to see something, and it is important for people to speak up on what the perception is on changes so you can potentially see flaws before its implimented.

I really didn't mean disrespect to you at all, its a good idea, but again WHAT does it really accomplish.. is the main point of it, and the question that ultimately needs to be answered for any changes.

DOES IT CHANGE ANYTHING? 

does starting someone at 32 cps 3 weeks later alter the issue at hand?  I don't believe it is enough to alter anything, I didn't offer any differing suggestions because ultimately it doesn't matter what I suggest.  I tried to simply point out flawed logic that everyone seems to think this is 'enough' to help the new people. 

and i DID offer a suggestion, if not exactly spelled out that way.. make it so these newer players gain more for losing, and a lot of this is not so much of an issue ... you can't expect them to catch up by only gaining 1 cp a game if they are forced to play the higher people due to restrictions on population ..

[|-|Cozmo|-|]

i dont really want to reiterate my self a third time, but seem to be being ignored (forgive me if i am wrong).

i dont feel you should try too hard on advertising the mod to newer player unless they want to try it out,
since this is only an Alpha build still and this system could change loads when the main aspect *the warmap* is put in, trying to balance this current engine is a waste of your valubale time IMO.

once again sorry if you were listening b4. 

[fldash]

salan, I didn't even comment on what the rewards for battles will be based on winning/losing and rank of the other player.  Why are you assuming a new player who loses to an upper tier player won't gain anything? 

[salan]

thats a good point dash, i guess it comes from not knowing.

you state something but don't offer any info to stop someone from percieving something..

what more would you expect?  no one can offer any type of communication if they only know vague things... so we offer what we know, or what we percieve based on what you say...


again really meant no offense to you dash..

[fldash]

As I said in that post:

"Furthermore, details on complex functions like TAV, resupply, availability will not be made available. "

Which is why I stopped explaining.  There's no need for the players to really know how it works.  Only that they'll be gaining CP/RB for every battle.

[salan]

I guarantee a player coming in who gets 1 CP for every day the war has been going on and has some skill is going to be able to be competitive and possible beat players that have a T4.

I can't agree with this because you are assuming that skill is purely micro based.. and this MOD takes a lot more into account then simple micro.  (squad layout, force purchasing, force retension vrs availability... resource bonus's.. veterency.. squad call in use..)

but then again you are also assuming that everyone with a t4 is good, or bad... to many assumptions to go on here..

the longer the war goes the more this bonus will take effect, of course.. but for the first few weeks you will probably see no difference then there is now, probably up to the first month, of course this is according to what we KNOW right now.. baring things you haven't told us...

As I said in that post:

"Furthermore, details on complex functions like TAV, resupply, availability will not be made available. "

Which is why I stopped explaining.  There's no need for the players to really know how it works.  Only that they'll be gaining CP/RB for every battle.

ahh.. well how do you expect people not to make comments that go against what you have planned then ... id expect it more then not..

[Thtb]

I dont have a t4 (i dumped weapon supplus to get cp´s for a real t4 faster) and coud beat akranadas its not that much of a difference if you can even it out with skill.,..

[Phil]

Stop making FL- look unintelligent please.

Or at least do it with proper grammar and punctuation, so its easier to read. Then we can both laugh at him

PS.
I'm sure that comment will bite me in the ass soon.

[|-|Cozmo|-|]

it all ready has!!

this post is watching you!!!.... what?! NO! thats not right......

[salan]

Stop making FL- look unintelligent please.

Or at least do it with proper grammar and punctuation, so its easier to read. Then we can both laugh at him

PS.
I'm sure that comment will bite me in the ass soon.

ah it won't bite you at all

my punctuation isn't the best nor spelling/grammar.. happy life .. only smart in some ways eh.

I respect dash a hell of a lot, but it doesn't mean I won't post my perspective nor my critique or what I Have learnt through testing and playing.

It's more important to have vocal people who will point out the opposite of things as they know it rather then a silent community who just goes with something simply because they are afraid to speak.

and by not informing us, you just have to accept the fact that we base our arguments on what we know now, that will never change.

[scrapking]

Hey, I am beyond pleased simply because Devs were apparently already aware of this issue, and have a plan.  Do all plans work?  No.  But it looks like a solid move in the right direction.  It might turn out to be the right answer, it might need tweaking.  It is the nature of these things. 

Really my only grievance is the frustration, not from losing the battle, but from losing every single encounter during a battle.  I have lost plenty of games where I at least felt I had moments of success, or could look back and recall 2 or 3 mistakes that made the difference.  I can also recall battles where this vet0 was annihilated by that vet3.  Or this t3/4 ability stomped all over me, without even a near equal answer of my own.

Somewhere between what we have now, and giving everyone every single CP ability and all vet3 everything is the proper balance.  For the game to be interesting, and compelling, the "level up" concept is the right answer.  In terms of balance, it is ONLY an issue because of our relatively small "gene pool", which only gets smaller when trying to match your own company against someone else's in terms of advancement.  Also probably worse for new players...not certain, but I'd hedge my bets that new players account for 10% or less of active play.

The problem is that there are not enough of us to offer plentiful, quasi-balanced games for everyone.  If we had 10 times as many players, or more, this would be far less of an issue at all.  Assuming that balancing the gameplay is something that we (yes, "we", not just devs - roll more new companies please)  can personally affect (barring each of us recruiting 10 new people), again, I repeat, I am quite well pleased and impressed with the genuine concern that both the devs, and the community, have for making this work.

[Nevyen]

Salan i gasped after looking at the thread with your pink shirt in it again.

[DasNoob]

I'll spill some beans here.  We have plans to develop a ranking system nearly identical to the one used in the Relic Online ladders.  Rewards for matches will be based upon the difficulty level of your opponent.

In addition, we will most likely give minimum of 1 CP/day no matter how many battles you fight, even if you don't fight any.   New players joining the battle will get x number of CP where x is the number of days the war has been in progress.

Furthermore, details on complex functions like TAV, resupply, availability will not be made available.  We will only mentions that there are systems in place to control these things.  It's not important for our players to know how they work, only that they are present.

That's all I can say at this time.

I <3 FL NOW!

[Falcon333]

First off, love the mod.  It is in a large sense, better than the actual original game.

One thing, however, and it is a big thing...  it is extremely demoralizing, as a new player, with entry level companies, to play against the more advanced companies out there.  I do realize that the veteran players enjoy using the companies that they spent time to develop.  I can respect that, I am sure I would too.  I also realize that to some extent the potential for loss on my part is rather low, in terms of risk vs. reward, since generally my units have little or no veterancy.  However, it is discouraging to play, simply put it is not fun.  Not to mention that it is significantly harder to develop veterancy with the heavy losses incurred in these battles.

The obvious conclusion for me is to outright avoid playing the more advanced companies, which is not explicitly easy since there is no way of knowing a given player's level of advancement prior to actually being in game.  The shame is that I will wind up playing less games, making the uphill march even longer.  But to continue being easy points, feeding already strong opponents more strength, and gaining little for the loss, simply feels foolish.

I would hope the developers could consider the steep curve for newcomers in an estabilshed system - where the actual number of players does not support readily made games for same levelled players easy - as something which needs attention.

Even though it was my 1st time, even though i lost, even though i lost 1 out of 4 tanks, i still managed to put up a good fight against cozmo(you might remember him from the ingame tutorial )

Battle Records
---------------
Infantry Killed: 80 Infantry Lost: 41
Vehicles Killed: 2 Vehicles Lost: 1

Yes, veterency makes a difference. But strategy is way more powerfull,
people with veterancy units will be watching the veteran units more closeby than observing strikes of oppurtuity (no offence).
This is my opininion.

[scrapkingss]

First off, love the mod.  It is in a large sense, better than the actual original game.

One thing, however, and it is a big thing...  it is extremely demoralizing, as a new player, with entry level companies, to play against the more advanced companies out there.  I do realize that the veteran players enjoy using the companies that they spent time to develop.  I can respect that, I am sure I would too.  I also realize that to some extent the potential for loss on my part is rather low, in terms of risk vs. reward, since generally my units have little or no veterancy.  However, it is discouraging to play, simply put it is not fun.  Not to mention that it is significantly harder to develop veterancy with the heavy losses incurred in these battles.

The obvious conclusion for me is to outright avoid playing the more advanced companies, which is not explicitly easy since there is no way of knowing a given player's level of advancement prior to actually being in game.  The shame is that I will wind up playing less games, making the uphill march even longer.  But to continue being easy points, feeding already strong opponents more strength, and gaining little for the loss, simply feels foolish.

I would hope the developers could consider the steep curve for newcomers in an estabilshed system - where the actual number of players does not support readily made games for same levelled players easy - as something which needs attention.

Even though it was my 1st time, even though i lost, even though i lost 1 out of 4 tanks, i still managed to put up a good fight against cozmo(you might remember him from the ingame tutorial )

Battle Records
---------------
Infantry Killed: 80 Infantry Lost: 41
Vehicles Killed: 2 Vehicles Lost: 1

Yes, veterency makes a difference. But strategy is way more powerfull,
people with veterancy units will be watching the veteran units more closeby than observing strikes of oppurtuity (no offence).
This is my opininion.

I'm not sure what Cozmo's Tier / Veterancy status is, and I mean no offense to him (he did the community a great service by making it), but having made the tutorial has nothing to do with the quality level of a division. 

And really my point was not so much about the experience after 1 or 2 battles, but how it drains you losing game after game, gaining little CP / vet.  After time it is demoralizing.  That's all.