Weapons Cache explained

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[Demon767]

SMokaz is right, my schorched earth company is weak against all Tank companies because i can only buy 50mms in it. im Weak in AT but strong in AI on that company

[LeoPhone]

Totally agreed with smokaz.

there is nothing wrong with spam. it specializes your company thus creating a certain weakness in it.
a balanced company has less weaknesses but it is also less powerful in some situations.

if a certain spamtactic is too effective it should be blamed on that unit/upgrade's balance/design. the examples of too effective spamtactics eirrmod named:

panzerfaust - panzerfausts are simply too good for 30mu. 100% accuracy and high damage. you can hardly counter it because of its long range and low wind up. solution: nerf panzerfausts by increasing price, reducing damage or making it counterable.

assault/aw - same story with panzerfausts basically. change the price or rework the ability (assault&aw are bugged anyway, especially aw)

goliaths: the reason why goliath spam is so effective is because pioneers are just 3 pool (engis are 6). make pios 6 pool and now if you want to get 10 goliaths you only have enough infantry pool left for 6 grenadiers. (and 5500mp floating)

[Smokaz]

SMokaz is right, my schorched earth company is weak against all Tank companies because i can only buy 50mms in it. im Weak in AT but strong in AI on that company

yet this specialization is unproblematic - but players specializing on their own suddendly has no worthwhile to mention BACKSIDE to the medal and all "elite spam advantages"

tank hunter infantry for instance gets chewed to pieces if they cant hug munitions halftracks or buildings by the buffed allied infantry (top t4 commandos, double t3 infantry or top t4 infantry etc etc)

i do not mind eirrmod needing to be told this, because this is something you notice passively over the course of many many games and you have to have somewhat of a creepy interest in it to actually verbalize it as verbosely as i have felt forced to do

scrap weapons cache and just nerf assault nades for blitz. notice how the 75 muni price of the assymetric warfare actually forces players to be smart in its use.

let people buy the company's they want - prices are overall very good atm its just a few things like scout cars and asssault nades that needed to be looked at

Totally agreed with smokaz.

there is nothing wrong with spam. it specializes your company thus creating a certain weakness in it.
a balanced company has less weaknesses but it is also less powerful in some situations.

if a certain spamtactic is too effective it should be blamed on that unit/upgrade's balance/design. the examples of too effective spamtactics eirrmod named:

panzerfaust - panzerfausts are simply too good for 30mu. 100% accuracy and high damage. you can hardly counter it because of its long range and low wind up. solution: nerf panzerfausts by increasing price, reducing damage or making it counterable.

assault/aw - same story with panzerfausts basically. change the price or rework the ability (assault&aw are bugged anyway, especially aw)

goliaths: the reason why goliath spam is so effective is because pioneers are just 3 pool (engis are 6). make pios 6 pool and now if you want to get 10 goliaths you only have enough infantry pool left for 6 grenadiers. (and 5500mp floating)

There are some small things left to price out, other than that its good.

Goliaths for instance should not be much cheaper muni wiser than a 57mm.
Faust could be increased in price, people would just hold off buying it until they either had:

1) doctrine bonuses that gave +1 use
2) vet 2 (+1 use)

Notice how people usually buy stickies on vet 2 rifles and usually not as much (though it happens) on vet 0 rifles?

Increase the price of the upgrades leo mentioned and you wont have to screw with pool either.

[AmPM]

Or...

Make Assault 80mp and 50mu (numbers for example only); this way, you eat up your MP much faster, removing your ability to properly support a bunch of volks spam.

Do the same for the Faust and you could have 320mp 95mu VOLKS squads with both upgrades. Suddenly, much less powerful in comparison to that BAR rifle they just killed who only costs Rifle cost +50mp and 80mu.

[Audemed]

+5 for smokaz, +1 spartan, +1 leo.

[Unkn0wn]

I'm all in favour of overhauling Assault grenades, addressing goliaths (through pio pool) and raising the faust to for example 40 Mun. Heck, I reckon that would probably go a long way in addressing a lot of the issues people are having with certain builds. Though I do believe in the merits of a weapons cache, or failing that a system that simply adds + pool cost based on the upgrades. (I.e  if AB are 5 pool, with RRs they'd become 7)

Spartan also raises some fair concerns in regards to this mod's accessibility. (Which is already problematic enough as it is)

Anyway, the system should at least be given a little more time, as to allow optimisation. (A process though which should be taking place ASAP, it's not that much work to change the numbers) If everyone still hates it after that, I'm sure there won't be much keeping it from being removed.

[Smokaz]

I'm all in favour of overhauling Assault grenades, addressing goliaths (through pio pool) and raising the faust to for example 40 Mun. Heck, I reckon that would probably go a long way in addressing a lot of the issues people are having with certain builds. Though I do believe in the merits of a weapons cache, or failing that a system that simply adds + pool cost based on the upgrades. (I.e  if AB are 5 pool, with RRs they'd become 7)

Spartan also raises some fair concerns in regards to this mod's accessibility. (Which is already problematic enough as it is)

Anyway, the system should at least be given a little more time, as to allow optimisation. (A process though which should be taking place ASAP, it's not that much work to change the numbers) If everyone still hates it after that, I'm sure there won't be much keeping it from being removed.

if you "adress" the pio pool, you are raping people who want to use them to build bunkers, carry medikits and use flamers.

however if you are actually INCREASING THE PRICE OF GOLIATHS, YOU ARE AFFECTING THE GOLIATHS

[AmPM]

You make too much sense by directly addressing the problem Smokaz. Obviously we need to decrease the Manpower pool to make Pioneers a higher % of your company.

[LeoPhone]

engineers are 6 pool too? no one complains about them.

and just building a bunker with your pio is still no problem. its not like you want 10 bunkers in your company.

[EIRRMod]

Make Assault 80mp and 50mu (numbers for example only); this way, you eat up your MP much faster, removing your ability to properly support a bunch of volks spam.

Now THIS is similar logic to what the cache was even concieved for.

Two lines of costing, rather than 1 for a problematic upgrade, which now effects more than just the MU pool.

I can see the merits of both btw, and my bias is only towards testing and modifying a system to make this all work.

[Mysthalin]

I agree with smokaz. The WC is shit. One of the reasons why I left the BT was because the entire entity was fucking useless. All we did was serve as a little shadow organisation onto whom all the blame was being put upon as we tried to actually do shit while somebody as "irrelevant"(keep note of the quotation marks, they're important for context) as groundfire created systems completely mis-representative of gameplay. As far as I'm aware it hasn't changed one fucking bit since I left.

Let the rage begin.

[Smokaz]

That isnt true, the BT was useful. But I know for real that its not the optimal position to be in if you are going to disagree with mod leadership. You have to be somewhat of a yes-man to be Illuminati material. Or a mute-man. Wink wink.

[EIRRMod]

I agree with smokaz. The WC is shit. One of the reasons why I left the BT was because the entire entity was fucking useless. All we did was serve as a little shadow organisation onto whom all the blame was being put upon as we tried to actually do shit while somebody as "irrelevant"(keep note of the quotation marks, they're important for context) as groundfire created systems completely mis-representative of gameplay. As far as I'm aware it hasn't changed one fucking bit since I left.

Let the rage begin.

No rage, youre just uninformed.

The balance team currently works well, as a team, but has no input on mechanics changes.  
In fact, thats all me baby.

[Mysthalin]

The only real BT change that got passed was light vehicle rework, which HAD to be lead by unkn0wn very very heavily for it to be implemented. Otherwise we'd still have the 30 FU greyhound, lol.

BT WAS made impotent by a ridiculous multi-layered sledgehammer of corrupt beurocrary. Maybe, with skaffa spending hours as balance lead hammering through with simply acidic resilience it's gotten better - but that's way more effort than should be needed for a good balance team.

Hint: I shouldn't have needed to do things like explain for 7 pages to a single non-entity on the honorary member team why 0.25 accuracy vs riflemen on an 18 popcap tank is a bad thing (translation : less than 12% chance to get 2 people a shot in a full 6 rifleman squad) before being told off for daring to argue with the non-entity and ignored.

[EIRRMod]

The only real BT change that got passed was light vehicle rework, which HAD to be lead by unkn0wn very very heavily for it to be implemented. Otherwise we'd still have the 30 FU greyhound lol.

Have you not been reading the current patch notes?

Most of those changes have been from the Balance team.

[Mysthalin]

The weapons cache is a BT change?

REALLY?!

If we're looking at current patch notes that is nothing but bug fixes and the implementation of weapons cache. ZERO balance changes.

[EIRRMod]

That isnt true, the BT was useful. But I know for real that its not the optimal position to be in if you are going to disagree with mod leadership. You have to be somewhat of a yes-man to be Illuminati material. Or a mute-man. Wink wink.

Whatever!  LOL - In this thread alone I have listened to your argument, and because it has good, valid points - Ive taken it on board! I dont remember us having any serious disagreements?  Did we?  Apart from that thing with your mum.

Anyway, Im commited to test the system, to see the results, and then act upon those findings for a re-work, removal or even a different system that noone saw as a solution.  This discussion has become derailed a little, so if we could - could we return to bashing the mechanic rather than us?  lol

[Smokaz]

Yer mechanic is fat and ur ugly. But yeah consider me bribed off for now.

[EIRRMod]

The weapons cache is a BT change?

REALLY?!

If we're looking at current patch notes that is nothing but bug fixes and the implementation of weapons cache. ZERO balance changes.

Skaffa and the current BT have just come on board.  The next patch will (should) have the fruits of this labour.

About 50 or so topics on the go at the moment ~half to a resolution.

I kinda meant from the past BT during the 'beaurocracy' phase you were referring to.

[Mysthalin]

From the "beaurocracy" phase all I remember is maybe 2-3 changes we would vote on and 10-12 that nobody was even aware of happening, while the actually voted in ones would get ignored.

All I wish for is that Skaffa doesn't have to deal with any of that bullcrap.

I know it may seem like we're dissing the system as opposed to the actual change - but the fact is that the change is caused by a shitty system. Fix the system, you fix the shitty changes - that's what i've been thought in every single subject I've ever taken up. I don't see any reason not to try to fix the system.