Evangelics in Sweden FTW!

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[Vermillion_Hawk]

If the hammer convinced someone to commit murder then it is indeed a problem. However a hammer does no such thing and the term tool has many meanings, which is why you can't compare religion to a hammer.

I can when I'm using a broad metaphor. Also direct me to any valid proof that any core founding principle of a religion has motivated anybody to kill anyone.

[Sachaztan]

See, and here it boils down not to universal facts, but personal preference. Tools serve the purposes of their owners, and nothing more. How about we rid the world of guns as well, since they have the potential to harm mankind? Violence can be found somewhere else, right?

As I said, it's all personal preference. I don't recall any churches hosting slave labour facilities or internment camps, but rather food drives and homeless shelters.

Evidently you've had some sort of expereince that has disillusioned you towards a bias against organized religion, and that's fine. Just don't go spouting shit about it.

1. Without any weapons in the world the world would be a safer place, that's pretty much a no-brainer. But glhf removing all the weapons from the world and preventing new ones from being made without using weapons yourself.

2. Like I stated before, all the positive aspects of religion can easily be achieved by different means. Believe it or not there are secular humanitarian organisations. The red cross and doctors without borders are two of them.

3. This is where you are completely wrong. Every single religious person that I know personally are decent folk and the same goes for all my other personal encounters with religion.
How about you don't sprout your pro-religion shit ?

[Sachaztan]

I can when I'm using a broad metaphor. Also direct me to any valid proof that any core founding principle of a religion has motivated anybody to kill anyone.

Well for starters the old testament has plenty of passages where it explicitly states numerous reasons to kill another human being.

http://www.gotquestions.org/death-penalty.html

Some Islamic sects believe that you go to heaven for killing heathens, I think we all know about these ones.

But I suppose you phrased it this way " core founding principle of a religion" to be able to wriggle yourself out of obvious examples like these ones, bullshitting something like how the "core founding principle" of Christianity is love =). Even so, there's plenty of examples of "the hammer telling the guy using it to kill someone".

[Spartan_Marine88]

Some Islamic sects believe that you go to heaven for killing heathens, I think we all know about these ones.

Be careful about this, none of the religion actually condones the killing of innocents or the sacrifice of ones self. Those that preform these acts actually don't know that much about their own religion, and are only taught small passages from the Koran. The ones to blame are the corrupt Imams who are seeking power.

[Sachaztan]

Be careful about this, none of the religion actually condones the killing of innocents or the sacrifice of ones self. Those that preform these acts actually don't know that much about their own religion, and are only taught small passages from the Koran. The ones to blame are the corrupt Imams who are seeking power.

Which is one way new branches off a religion is formed. The main religion might consider it heresy and blasphemy, but it's still very much an offspring of that faith. This is a bit of a grey-scale, what's the difference between a small sect and a corrupted preaching of another?

I'm not one to judge if these imams actually believe the shit that they profess but their followers sure as hell do and wouldn't all this taken together mean that it's a sect  off Islam?

[Vermillion_Hawk]

The "difference" is that if you even knew an ounce of theology, you would know that the fundamental foundation of nearly all religions is that of empathy, do unto others as you would have done to yourself. These sects are not following the core religious texts, as I said earlier, and thus they are not truly following the religion in all its forms.

Regardless, this is all truly useless. Morals are morals, and people will follow or not follow them with or without a religion. Who are you to say that one way of acheiving said ethical and moral goals is wrong as opposed to another?

[Spartan_Marine88]

I'm not one to judge if these imams actually believe the shit that they profess but their followers sure as hell do and wouldn't all this taken together mean that it's a sect  off Islam?

No because while its respected for political reasons and supported by certain governments the actual religious elite are 100% against it. Its using child soldiers, there is very little religion to it other then if you die you get a thousand fresh pussies to fuck

[Sachaztan]

No because while its respected for political reasons and supported by certain governments the actual religious elite are 100% against it. Its using child soldiers, there is very little religion to it other then if you die you get a thousand fresh pussies to fuck

Well in that case the pilgrims that came to America weren't part of a religion. Same with every religious movement considered heresy by the Catholics.

*edit* and don't forget about Christianity which was considered a Jewish heresy and wasn't supported by any powerful individuals early on.

[nikomas]

Speaking of tools... the bible must be the most lethal tool ever made 

[Tymathee]

this is still going on? what have i missed?

[Vermillion_Hawk]

Sach and Pony grasping at straws, and nothing more.

[nikomas]

Certain people defending religion as a good thing and the millions upon millions that have abused/been misslead by it should be overlooked.

[Demon767]

Religion is bad, end of story.

/Thread

[AmPM]

Certain people defending religion/science/humans as a good thing and the millions upon millions that have abused/killed/mislead by it should be overlooked.

You can say that about anything.

Science lead to the use of chemical weapons, nuclear weapons, and biological weapons.

Religion had lead to plenty of wars as well.

Point, the religion/science is not inherently bad/evil, just the people that make use of it. Unless of course you want to argue that Gandhi or Mother Theresa were evil.

[PonySlaystation]

The God portrayed in the Bible and the Koran aren't exactly Gods of peace and love and these are beings of perfection, meaning none of their actions are wrongful, so perfect that mankind was created in their reflection.

I mean the God in the Bible is directly responsible for many mass-murders, rapes, pillage, plunder, slavery, child abuse and killing, not to mention the killing of unborn children. And most of these without any proper moral reason. They basically make Osama Bin Laden look like a boy scout.

Science can be evil too, if sponsored by the state to create more efficient weapons.

[smurfORnot]

Religion by itself isnt bad. It's something most people need. If your life sucks penis,which it does for many people,religion offers them comfort,that there is more than this to life. And all of you atheist(including myself,but I am more agnostic tbh.) will call for God's help in certain situations probably.
Problem is,religion can be easily abused to accomplish some goals,which individuals and church uses.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

People still seem to be unable to dissociate the fundamental principles of a religion (don't kill, don't steal, do unto others, etc.) from the individuals throughout history who have abused it. Yes, there are many instances in the Bible where God commits what would be seen as evil deeds, but the error here is your perception of it. Keep in mind that the Old Testament, where most of these acts occurred, was written in a time of strife for the Hebrews. They were being assaulted from all sides by enemies, and thus those books were written with a skew to them to reassure the people that their God was a strong God. It is an allegory and nothing more. Even during these parts in the Bible, it always has the underlying message that God loves his people.

Just as science "can" be evil, so can religion, when it's used for wrongs in certain cases like this. Does this mean we should eliminate science and religion, even though they do good daily to so many people, just because of the potential for evil?

I'm pretty sure that you won't care, though, since you just want to bash religion like all the cool kids, am I right?

[nikomas]

No, I'm saying religion is a tool created in a time were life generally sucked for everyone aside from a 0.00001%, so the people needed some way to think the struggles were worth living trough, que religion.

These days, the tool religion is not neccacery the way it once was and in the "modern" world does more blinding that good, imo.

[PonySlaystation]

Just as science "can" be evil, so can religion, when it's used for wrongs in certain cases like this. Does this mean we should eliminate science and religion, even though they do good daily to so many people, just because of the potential for evil?

YES, no religion and no nuclear weapons would mean heaven on earth.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

YES, no religion and no nuclear weapons would mean heaven on earth.

No, I mean science in general. No medical treatments, no automation, no electricity, nothing. Also I'm loving how you can only make a poor argument against bits and pieces of my arguments and not the main body.