The Bergtiger - EiR's Neglected Son

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[TheWindCriesMary]

Sit down, fellow EiR people. Grab a chair. Would you like some coffee? No? Are you sure? Ok then.

We need to have a talk. I've gathered you all here because we are all guilty of neglect. Yes, this is an intervention. An intervention because we are guilty of mistreating and all-but ignoring an innocent and friendly unit that just wants to be welcomed and loved. We have doomed it to sit alone, forgotten in the dusty, grimy corner where we occasionally will throw it boot leather to chew on instead of dinner.


That unit is the Bergtiger. In short, it is the Uganda of EiR.

Now out of charity and pity, for the same reason that people sometimes take stray dogs into their home, I've spent the last week exclusively playing with my TH company to try and take the Bergtiger under my wing. This has resulted in several dozen games with the Bergtiger. At best, it was a mediocre unit. At worst, a complete misinvestment. I wanted to know why no one ever seemed to use it. This thread is the result of that experiment.

Here's why:

1. The Bergtiger is expensive

At 450 MP, 60 munitions (if a repair is bought [Credit to Leo]), and 220 fuel the Bergtiger is anything but a moderately priced unit. In fact, behind only the Jagpanther and the Panther it is the third most expensive unit in a PE army. What? How?

Surely for such a massive cost, it must be a fantastic unit capable of earning its cost back several times over (if used intelligently). After all, all other units of commensurate cost are certainly capable of achieving this feat in the right circumstances.

Unfortunately that is not the case, as will be further explored below.


2. The Bergtiger requires a huge non-resource investment

It would be one thing if the Bergtiger was just really, really expensive. But no, it also requires a huge investment.

 First of all, it is a T3 unlock. In terms of a doctrine-perspective, that is a huge cost. Putting this thing on the same level as a Jagpanther dictates, logically, that it should be somewhat capable of making a somewhat similar level of contribution to a game.

Secondly, it takes 6 pop. This is not too high for a unit like the Bergtiger if it were designed to be cost-effective, but as of right now it is just one more aggrivated characteristic that hurts the Bergtiger.

Third, the Bergtiger requires significant in-game attention in order to yield returns. First of these challenges is that has no gun (nor should it), is incredibly slow (which is fine), and can repair a medium amount every 5-6 minutes. As the average EiR game lasts between 30 and 45 minutes, and it would generally be completely idiotic to bring one out earlier than 32+ pop, you'll be VERY lucky to get 2 or 3 repairs per game (as you will be shorthanded 6 pop, and the ebb and flow of a challenging EiR game will almost certainly put it in serious harms way a few times.) Most of the time I find I'm able to get 2-3 in the average 3v3.


"But wait," you might say, "you can also harvest munitions from wrecks!"  And yes, you are right. But let me shed some light on this: if you are EXTREMELY lucky, careful, and willing/able to donate a significant amount of time to harvesting wrecks (which frequently are located in dangerous areas) you will get 1 or 2 repairs this way. And that is if you are very lucky.

Finding wrecks to salvage is one thing, but oftentimes they will give between 3-20 munitions. In fact, many times you need 7-8 wrecks for a single repair. If you've ever tried repairing something like a Jagpanther with a berg tiger, you're looking at a very insignificant return for that much time and effort. Better to just have another hetzer.


3. The current Bergtiger is designed to underperform

Ultimately it comes down to this:

You invest 3 doctrine unlock points, 6 pop and then pay 450 mp, 60 (repair) munitions, and 220 fuel for a slow, defenseless vehicle that has the potential opportunity to conduct 3-4 medium'ish repairs -- all but 1 of which you're actually guaranteed to get.  For the same investment you could buy any other unit in the PE army (aside from a panther or Jagpanther) with full upgrades while also having 3 extra doctrine unlock points to spend.



The conclusion:

The Bergtiger needs love. By themselves the cost, the doctrine point cost, the small repair quality, the pop amount and the fact that it requires intensive care and attention are not by any means wrong. But if you compound them all with the fact that the Berg's repairs are weak AND that it takes forever/many wrecks to generate additional repairs... well there's a problem.


So my proposed solution is that the amount of munitions recovered from wrecks is increased, and the amount/speed at which the bergtiger repairs is increased. I'm fine with paying through the nose for the unit if it has the potential to earn it's investment back a little more effectively.

And who knows, maybe then someone other than me will start trying to use the damned thing in-game.

-Wind

[skaffa]

You can do better than that buddy.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I should also note, as an addendum to the above, that the Bergtiger is a unit that should not be used in a 2v2.  This makes it perhaps the only unit in all of EiR that would fall under that category.

In it's current state, it is not capable of performing well in a 2v2 situation (where teams are well matched).


@Skaffa: This thread is for intelligent, non-partisan, logically supported balance discussion. I know you don't have much experience with that kind of thing, but save vague, weird and otherwise irellevant unsupported nonsense for the general chat section of the forum.

-Wind

[skaffa]

You can do better than that buddy.

@Skaffa: This thread is for intelligent, non-partisan, logically supported balance discussion. I know you don't have much experience with that kind of thing, but save vague, weird and otherwise irellevant unsupported nonsense for the general chat section of the forum.

-Wind

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=22813.msg401204#msg401204



You're better than this Wind! Get your shit together!

[TheWindCriesMary]

Moving right along, I should also mention for anyone that's curious about the Bergtiger that you can find an example of it in action in this replay: http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=23036.0

It's a good indication of how much time and investment is required to get a return out of a Bergtiger, and the relatively low yield of it's repairs vs. the amount of wrecks required.

-Wind

[skaffa]

Moving right along

I win.

[Groundfire]

I wonder if we can make an ability for the berge to actively search for wrecks to salvage. Kinda like how repair bunker pios actively search for tanks in a radius to repair.

[LeoPhone]

wind u didn't even use kettens to salvage for berge (you can do this all game, even without berge on field) or tried using hetzer + berge (probably)
and it doesn't cost 60 mu and the T4 which should mainly buff this unit isn't even in yet. calliope without main gun is meh as well.

[Groundfire]

To be honest, who wants to use a ketten to salvage. Once you hit that T4 that specalizes in the Bergetiger and it's healing, panzer grens should be able to salvage as well.

The berge is a good concept, we can eventually use it as the model for all external repair kit healing systems, but the whole thing needs to be streamlined and efficient. It really should happen by itself automatically while on the field for the amount of drain it does on your pop and pool/resources.

The berge should mozy along sucking up wrecks like one of those robotic vaccum cleaners until enough munis have been soaked up for a repair kit.

[TheWindCriesMary]

wind u didn't even use kettens to salvage for berge (you can do this all game, even without berge on field) or tried using hetzer + berge (probably)
and it doesn't cost 60 mu and the T4 which should mainly buff this unit isn't even in yet. calliope without main gun is meh as well.

Leo you make a good point about Kettens, but I have tried using this before (and hetzer + berge which is underwhelming). The only problem with this strategy is that it requires an additional investment in kettens for the same low-grade repair. In recent games I've tried using Kettens to get hard to reach wrecks but I'm still consistently finding the repair amount of be unsatisfactory.

But you are right about it not costing 60 munitions (without a repair). I'll adjust that in the original post.

In terms of the Calliope with main gun, it is an extremely fantastic unit. My armour company (which I played almost exclusively as my allied company in the last few weeks) consistently can get 30 or more kills on each. They are also extremely common and widespread in the current EiR metagame which suggests they are both popular and effective. When is the last time you saw someone use a Berg other than me? The answer is rarely if ever. That alone suggests a problem.

And while I agree the T4 that will buff it isn't implemented, I am hesitant to balance things based on what might happen in the future. Especially when the TH doctrine has been out for months.
 

I wonder if we can make an ability for the berge to actively search for wrecks to salvage. Kinda like how repair bunker pios actively search for tanks in a radius to repair.

This might be helpful, but finding the wrecks isn't really the problem. It's the fact that each wreck yields so few munitions... especially compared to the amount of investment you've put into it. In order to reach those wrecks, the berg must enter into dangerous waters frequently. This would be fine if the yield was higher.

-Wind

[Masacree]

Wow Skaffa, you want us to ignore the humyn rights abuses happening in our very own community?

#SKAFFA2012

WE'LL MAKE HIM FAMOUS

[Groundfire]

This might be helpful, but finding the wrecks isn't really the problem. It's the fact that each wreck yields so few munitions. In order to reach those wrecks, the berg must enter into dangerous waters frequently. This would be fine if the yield was higher.

-Wind

I am speaking of the versatility. If you have many units that have a streamlined mechanisim for asorbing wrecks, and an abundance of wrecks, then the yield for those wrecks can be lower.

By relying on the berge alone, you are making your external repair kit system an expensive bottle neck.

The berge is there to deliver the repair kit, that is why it is so expensive. To fix the problem is not a higher yield wrecks, but to streamline the muni collection via more salvage units and making it easier to do via salvage auto-search, so you can focus on other things.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I am speaking of the versatility. If you have many units that have a streamlined mechanisim for asorbing wrecks, and an abundance of wrecks, then the yield for those wrecks can be lower.

By relying on the berge alone, you are making your external repair kit system an expensive bottle neck.

That's a good point Ground. I think the idea has merit. If the Berg has some fundamental changes to it's mechanism and methodology I can see the low yield of each wreck being mitigated.

One thing I'm worried about is the probability that the Berg will be able to soak up a reasonable amount of wrecks on auto-pilot, especially given the extremely fluidic nature of EiR games and the relatively small amount of units on that could reasonably defend it (while also trying to win the game). Then you add in the fact that when it's repairing something you have 12-22 pop invested in the repair that is unable to move or fire.

How can we address these problems?

EDIT: I just realized you're also advocating having other units participate in the salvage process. That is VERY interesting. Would Kettens also be automated?

-Wind

[Groundfire]

EDIT: I just realized you're also advocating having other units participate in the salvage process. That is VERY interesting. Would Kettens also be automated?

-Wind

sure, why not.

[aeroblade56]

sure, why not.

So, How about them Airborne

[NightRain]

T1 Scavenging Kitty. 1 pop Scavenger that can go into harm and get ignored to harvest needed munitions for Berge Tiger.

[brn4meplz]

Everytime I try and change this unit, it gets bastardized. I've practically given up on it ever working correctly. It's not supposed to lock itself out when it goes to repair another tank.

[smurfORnot]

When is the last time you saw someone use a Berg other than me? The answer is rarely if ever. That alone suggests a problem.

I used it at first. Even tryed hetzer+berg combo. Dint perform so good. You have APCR marders + magnetic nades to stop flanking,and X7 to finish off those expensive tanks. You dont need more.
 Anything else is less useful than this. If you wanna use hetzers,you need to have APCR because they are shit without(even with enemy still bounces fair amount of shots),this would automatically exclude Middle T4 even if it is working for this combo.
As already said by wind. In 2v2 he is too big risk factor,and not worth it. Yes,you could use him to help your teammate(because it's not rly cost effective to repair marder or 50mm which should be your main AT). But he becomes only useful after your teammate has exhausted his repair kit,and still didnt loose his tank in action. Not to mention if you wanted to repair something beefier in 2v2 like KT or Tiger,that would be 22-24 pop sitting and doing nothing. Giving enemy enough time to push you from current position if they are any smart.

Another underwhelming T3 is that TD that gives you some sight and other stuff. Dunno why,but TD have not so attractive bottom unlocks.  WIth other doctrines I cant decide what to take,with TD I still have spare points,lol(x7,magnetic nades,tank intel. and tellers)

[aeroblade56]

Well if we are going to start a complaining thread we should just start on Airborne.

Triple t3 is the way to go.

[IJustDontCare]

I think a bergetiger actively looking for wrecks to salvage is a fun idea!

"The fuck is my bergetiger? Shit! It's driving into a pershing and 10 ATGs."