Addressing the viability of medium armour

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[Demon767]

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Well no i dont think so, 4 m10s are pretty cost effective against Tanks, and with the higher fu, lower mp (lower mu in this case in comparison to 2 pershing + callie) you have more infantry, more ATGs, which is the bonus of that strat, i see nothing wrong with that. 4 m10s are pretty useful, and if you want AP rounds on them, then more power to your m10s

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You're opinion is such doom saying   what you are saying will always happen, the option here gives you more 80guns

You'll have roughly the same amount of AT as before (wish myst was here  ), except its just changing the composition. If people are sooo sick of the effectiveness of crushing, and sooo annoyed over the ineffectiveness of mediums. then this is a possible fix

[smurfORnot]

pershing with AP rounds can solo tiger 1v1,does rly good dmg to tanks and it's much more survivable than m10,dunno,seems kinda waste to pick ap rounds only for 4xm10. Axis can get 3x panther,if allies could only had 4x m10,those panthers would be more cost effective compared to m10's.

[Demon767]

*facepalm*

Smurf, what else are you getting more then a 3 panther build when you are using a 4m10 build (the extreme side of things) i wrote it down for you guys, im not explaining it again

[Hicks58]

People need to re-read my initial post a bit tbh.

I suggest crushing be re-worked, not removed. In light of the fact that the amount of speed that is lost upon a crush can be altered, I suggest changing it to a 66% loss of speed per infantry crushed. First guy is free, second one will leave you at a crawl. Only way you'll lolwut an entire squad is if the guy with the infantry is silly enough to have the squad blobbed onto a spot of cover when he see's ya bombing it down the road.

Also, let's look at an example of a TD done in my opinion, magnificently:

The Firefly. It has a fair price, it has high damage, high penetration, high range... But it's a glass cannon. If a 250 Fuel PIV gets close it'll paste you. On the other hand, if you scout and maintain range, you can wipe an entire company's worth of armour with a single Firefly over time.

In my opinion, this is how hard AT should work, high output, low input.

I used to complain about the Firefly quite a bit... But after spending time with it, watching it, I've learned that it's an extremely good unit and even better, it's simultaneously cost effective and relatively easy to counter.

[Demon767]

Hicks, have you ever crushed before? what you just suggested is the exact mechanic inplace, you lose so much speed after the 1st guy that you are at a crawl for the 2nd guy.

[Hicks58]

Yes, plenty of times.

Come to think of it, the problem is less with the speed reduction and more to do with the amount of speed you can pick up right after it - And the guys will be herded like sheep into tracks.

[Demon767]

Well, for the record, i believe that there is no problem becuase logically that should happen as this aint some starcraft genre game. You need to keep some integrity in a history based game.

With that said, your suggestion is impossible to implement without

A) changing the deceleration of culprit tanks (Dont even think for a second that is a possible solution)
B) The suggestion of increased slow! or detracks (slow mine effect) My gosh worst suggestion, shit ATG being circlestrafed, ill just throw one of my mans into the tank so it stops its circlestrafe

or

Shit my heavy tank is being circle strafed, no worries! ill just throw an infantry squad in its path and only 1 member will be killed because it has no speed to catch any more mans or circle strafe the target.

or Tanks rolling quickly down the road? no worries, ill stall them with a vanilla squad

problems problems problems.

Leave crush alone, and put all your ideas in the bin about it. it will not work, live with it, use it. its a game mechanic. dont make coh what its not

[Hicks58]

Then what your dealing with is heavy AT which can comfortably deal with infantry based threats at it's leisure.

If my solution to that glaring problem is pants, enlighten me as to what would be a better alternative.

[Demon767]

Well, for the record, i believe that there is no problem becuase logically that should happen as this aint some starcraft genre game. You need to keep some integrity in a history based game.

Come on, you tell people to read your post fully,and you obviously didnt read mine as you just asked me that question.

[Hicks58]

That's not offering a solution to the problem Demon, that's rejecting the problem in the first place.

Cheap AT renders medium armour obsolete. Something has to be done about the AT. Either less cost efficiency for price, or higher price for more cost efficiency.

Make them REAL tank hunters, but make their cost reflect it.

I'm all for history too, but CoH and EiRR are a place where gameplay must take priority.

[Demon767]

That's not offering a solution to the problem Demon, that's rejecting the problem in the first place.

Well, for the record, i believe that there is no problem becuase logically that should happen as this aint some starcraft genre game. You need to keep some integrity in a history based game.

Im about to tear my eyes out

I'm all for history too, but CoH and EiRR are a place where gameplay must take priority.

People hate the word REALISM, but the game is based on some form of realism. Tank speeds are realistic (IN GENERAL) Tank battles, as they may not be penetration realistic, keep the integrity of the game by basing on how big the tank is, and frontal armor etc and adding in health bar. Much like Infantry, its not perfectly realistic, we got heroic units that are special and are tougher to kill but as keeping with the integrity of the game are imagined as 'elite' units, but the one thing that remains constant is the integrity, which includes crush of small mans and tanks

as i said before, crush is NOT the problem

CRUSH IS NOT THE PROBLEM


and as i so clearly suggested, to raise the price of TD's to lessen the stress on players on having medium armor and the noobguys complaining about crush , but you obviously didnt read that -.- (high fu, low mp)

[NightRain]

That's not offering a solution to the problem Demon, that's rejecting the problem in the first place.

Cheap AT renders medium armour obsolete. Something has to be done about the AT. Either less cost efficiency for price, or higher price for more cost efficiency.

Make them REAL tank hunters, but make their cost reflect it.

I'm all for history too, but CoH and EiRR are a place where gameplay must take priority.

This. However if we were to make all M10s and M18s fireflies...well...actually. M10 with 50 range but expensive sounds absolutely sexy. Paper if caught but still.

[tank130]

snip...... You need to keep some integrity in a history based game.  snip...

SNip.......Tank speeds are realistic (IN GENERAL) snip.....

Snip..... but the one thing that remains constant is the integrity, which includes crush of small mans and tanks

So keeping within this theme: how do explain a tank racing full speed down a road, turn 90 degrees with out any deceleration, then instantly twisting back front again... all the while squishing the little mans.
You can not argue realism and super mystical turning tanks in the same sentence...that is just fail.

This is just a perfect example of fail arguments: "It has always been this way, so no matter what, it must stay that way".......

Hicks suggestion is a perfect example of a solution to a problem that does not require completely removing an ability.

A dedicated TD with awesome AI abilities is in fact a problem.

[Spartan_Marine88]

This. However if we were to make all M10s and M18s fireflies...well...actually. M10 with 50 range but expensive sounds absolutely sexy. Paper if caught but still.

see night gets it.

give em the fucking roll they were made for. I would love to see m10's feared and not just because they can fly outta no where and pulp people.

Crush should remain a viable emergency tactic, not what it is now.

[AmPM]

Crush really is fine.

The issue is not even the crushing of mans as AI, it's the small decrease in sniping ability of infantry and support weapons that you take for getting an M10/M18 over a Sherman. My M18's regularly snipe a few infantry, about the same as the Shermans do at range.

Or just, you know, reduce the accel of the M10 since it's the only one that's an issue, in compensation give it better sight range or reduce turret rotation as well and give it 50ish range on its gun. Still a hard counter to tanks, still fairly fast, and it nerfs it's crush and gives it a role that is not done better by a Hellcat.

Back on the topic of MEDIUM Armor and it's issues, they still mostly stem from almost any other vehicle either A: Shrugging off their damage (Stag/T17 I am looking at you) or dying to a much more efficient AT counter (M10/M18, Marders, ATGs, Schreks, etc.). The issue can really be solved in only 2 ways. Make the Medium Armor more efficient, or reduce the efficiency of hard AT units.

[tank130]

snip.....

Shit my heavy tank is being circle strafed, no worries! ill just throw an infantry squad in its path and only 1 member will be killed because it has no speed to catch any more mans or circle strafe the target.

or Tanks rolling quickly down the road? no worries, ill stall them with a vanilla squad

SO why is that tactic not being used now?
Marders, geschutzwagens, priests, hummels, or any light vehicles do not have crush, but I have never seen anyone use the tactics you are describing.....EVER!!!

Sounds a little like fear mongering to me?

[pqumsieh]

Because the first four are not front line vehicles...Not to mention they are not tanks...

The other two are light armor....

[Tymathee]

Or you can keep the tanks ranges the same but take away fire on the move from all tanks and have stabilizer upgrades or whatever or dont, dont care. but if my memory serves me correctly, in ww2 tanks didn't do a lot of firing on the move.

and if they tried, most of them had absolutely horrible accuracy and missed way more than they do in coh

[Jodomar]

well last game a did use my puma to body block two rifle squads from getting to my sniper. So yeah, It does happen but I would agree that the m10 being able to super crush infantry as dumb. Although, I still feel they should have some sort of crush. I think if we can put in some kind of debuff when the infantry is crushed that would stop people from using it as a lawnmower unless it was absolutely necessary. Not sure if that is even possible to code in but would be great to stop all this lawn care that goes on.

[AmPM]

SO why is that tactic not being used now?
Marders, geschutzwagens, priests, hummels, or any light vehicles do not have crush, but I have never seen anyone use the tactics you are describing.....EVER!!!

Sounds a little like fear mongering to me?

Because the AI for infantry will move out of the way of those vehicles, whereas for tanks, because they have human crush, they will attempt to, get hit, and slow the tank down....in other words, you CANNOT STALL A LIGHT VEHICLE WITH YOUR INFANTRY, IT WILL JUST PUSH THEM AROUND.

Which leads to the retarded tactic of pushing schreks and RRs around with your light vehicle so they can't shoot =)