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Author Topic: HVAP for american tanks - Whats the point?  (Read 6758 times)
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Smokaz Offline
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« on: July 02, 2012, 05:33:23 pm »

Whats the point? Or rather: what's left of it?

Sherman:
Upgun already does good job vs p4 before the buff, after the buff it beats the p4 hard. It helps against stugs and hetzers as well - although hetzers will most likely outrange them.
The upgun will however still suck vs panthers - marders - inf ht's - where its burst damage, dps or manevrability that leads to winning.
75mm doesn't get the buff - this is REALLY bad imo.

So sherman - my conclusion - the buffs are really mediocre for this unit! It improves a narrow role of the sherman.

M18 - Give up a lot of AI over the 76 to be able to smash hetzer , and to continue smashing p4s and do better vs stug. Panthers, marders, 50mms etc - will still roflsstomp the m18. Will achieve the same results vs the heavies when they are facing heavies without support.

M10 - faces the same problem as the m18. The HVAP m10 will do good penetration, but won't really "move up a class".

Conclusion: The HVAP for m18 and m10 - improves a narrow part of their operation somewhat.

I think that there need to be health buffs to the tank destroyers to justify them more. We had health improvements for american tank destroyers before, and it made them a lot better. This will make them less suicidal and able to be a part of a bigger unit composition more easily. It will also give them more leeway to fight it out with the panther+ heavies - which when they get damage or ROF buffs just eat up the tank destroyers too easily with shrek support.

200 health for m10/m18 or -25% reduced damage sounds really good. Maybe something else is better, but this T4 needs a buff. The penetration buff looks good on paper but the unit classes never spring from long range destroyer to multi everything like the panther or the 88 does - and judging from last patch - these wont get a nerf.
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Hicks58 Offline
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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2012, 06:42:58 pm »

76mm Shermans can effectively engage StuG's and Hetzer's as well as have good penetration rates against a Tiger (Around 50%). Penetration against the Panther aint too fantastic but shit, it's a medium tank. There's only so far you can push it.

75mm's having HVAP is pretty much pointless. The ONLY thing it would help you against to any noticable degree, would be PIV's, but then it'd be overlapping the 76mm upgun's role.

M18's and M10's receive no drawbacks from using HVAP, dunno where the hell you got that idea from. It's a flat buff which makes M18 penetration as good as M10 default pen, whilst making M10's pretty reliable against heavy armour. Due to fuel costs, you still want to engage with multiple TD's against Panther's or Jagd's, but you will get the job done faster.

You've also totally overlooked what HVAP does for the Pershing. Granted, it puts down the AI capacity... To the same AI as a 75mm Sherman. Still pretty solid. In return, you get the ability to be physically incapable of bouncing Tiger's at all but max range (With about a 5-8% chance) or if vet/doctrines are involved. Panthers and Jagds have a pretty juicy 70% chance to penetrate making Pershings effective Panther hunters.

It's a solid choice. The problem with HVAP is that in comparison, the others are better. Simple as that.

Oh, and you'd have to be fucking nuts to throw 200 hp extra onto the TD's. That'd give them the same health as Sherman's.

Yes. I did just call Ablative Armour fucking nuts.
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I mean I know Obama was the first one in EiR to get a card. and tbfh the Race card is pretty OP. but Romney has the K.K.K., those guys seem to camo anywhere. So OP units from both sides.
At the end of the day, however, stormtroopers finally got the anal invasion with a cactus they have richly deserved for years.
CrazyWR Offline
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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2012, 06:49:34 pm »

pretty much a perfect summary
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Smokaz Offline
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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2012, 07:08:22 pm »

I will have to adress some of the claims here one by one if you don't mind. I don't like "quote wars" but its really just my attention to single out where I think your wrong.

76mm Shermans can effectively engage StuG's and Hetzer's as well as have good penetration rates against a Tiger (Around 50%). Penetration against the Panther aint too fantastic but shit, it's a medium tank. There's only so far you can push it.

75mm's having HVAP is pretty much pointless. The ONLY thing it would help you against to any noticable degree, would be PIV's, but then it'd be overlapping the 76mm upgun's role.


1st of all - they can already do this reasonably well, and you give up awesome buffs from the other doctrine choces when picking hvap. You just make them a somewhat better at it, which I already pointed out in the OP.

It wouldn't be pointless to grab HVAP if it affected the 75mm - you would have the AI power of the 75mm, while also being able to contest p4s.Its the exact reason heat round p4s used to be really popular and a solid choice. The big difference is that p4's can relax at medium range vs allied handheld cause it won't hit or penetration. This is a important reason why it wouldn't be a problem for sherman 75mms. They can never relax vs axis handheld.

Also being able to deal damage 50% of the time while always getting into the range of a countershot - why is this even on the positive side for you, in the tiger battle?
Quote
M18's and M10's receive no drawbacks from using HVAP, dunno where the hell you got that idea from. It's a flat buff which makes M18 penetration as good as M10 default pen, whilst making M10's pretty reliable against heavy armour. Due to fuel costs, you still want to engage with multiple TD's against Panther's or Jagd's, but you will get the job done faster.

You've also totally overlooked what HVAP does for the Pershing. Granted, it puts down the AI capacity... To the same AI as a 75mm Sherman. Still pretty solid. In return, you get the ability to be physically incapable of bouncing Tiger's at all but max range (With about a 5-8% chance) or if vet/doctrines are involved. Panthers and Jagds have a pretty juicy 70% chance to penetrate making Pershings effective Panther hunters.

It's a solid choice. The problem with HVAP is that in comparison, the others are better. Simple as that.

Oh, and you'd have to be fucking nuts to throw 200 hp extra onto the TD's. That'd give them the same health as Sherman's.

Yes. I did just call Ablative Armour fucking nuts.

Hicks, your a very nice addition to the BT I'm sure. But you should keep in mind what is getting ablative armor.

Cromwells, fireflies and churchill varations have ALOT better armor than the m18/m10. 200 hp would literally be 1 1/2 shot more from most axis weapons, while on bouncing or hulled down armor like the royal engineers, those 200 hp actually end up amounting to a lot more. If you add 200 hp to the churchill it gets more chances of a 5% allowing it to escape, while the m18/m10 is facing overkill today most of the time.

Im also going to repeat that the role of the allied m18/m10 by position is critical to the americans because they have nothing like the marder or geschutz that can exist on the field defensively and ignore AI inf.

My problem is that dealing 1 shot to the tiger while great isolated, is not much compared to the kind of raw dps a lot of axis units are dealing out. What does it help to be able to do potshots very effectively when you can't stay in the engagement vs similarily buffed AT units? Your hvap is completely useless compared to a 12% less received damage buff from mid t4 when you are facing shit like the 88, marders or flanking pumas/clowncars.

You see, if we look at the base axis/allied at units you will see that outside of the marder/geschutz, they already have good damage and penetration, while the allied units just have good damage when they penetrate - like the zook when it rear hits. While axis doctrines buff both damage and penetration on their at, the HVAP just does 1 thing. 10% is neglible on the upgun.

I really dislike what I see when I look at ACPR vs HVAP. Marder forces off sherman to repair in 3 shots. You need a pershing to do the same for allies - and you can just forget about having the same firepower for pop.

the main reason hvap sucks is because while its constant, the ROF or DPS doesnt not improve enough. the dps of a marder must be like 200% with acpr, i wonder what the dps increase overall for a upgun vs p4 is in comparsion
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 07:15:18 pm by Smokaz » Logged
aeroblade56 Offline
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2012, 08:43:08 pm »

I think since it already buffs what the TD is meant to do and thats to kill tanks glass cannons but they TD already do their job and they do it well so their isnt any reason to give them this buff.

Also if you put it on the 76 sherman, its not going to make them any beter vs panthers and the such it still dies just as fast and most players that run p4s are blitz players so you already have to worry about the storms.



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You are welcome to your opinion.

You are also welcome to be wrong.
Poppi Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1080


« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2012, 03:31:45 am »

i would like to see HVAP affect 75mm.
not sure why you call a descent buff pointless. Great AI, and better at taking out light vehicles. The buff to the Jumbo in TD does its job. Blew up a panther (5%) frontal armor.
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rolcsika0128 Offline
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Posts: 340



« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2012, 05:10:38 am »

Well I have an idea, it might be stupid but I’m gonna share it.

I would leave the hvap bonuses for shermans / acs as it is. I would change hvap for TDs (maybe pershings) My idea is the following: top T4 unlocks HVAP rounds which could be purchased for TDs for like 60 munis(numbers are arguable), which would work the same way as 57mm apcr rounds. It would give TDs x5 penetration( maybe +15%dmg) for a short duration of time. (maybe for 2-3 shots). You could use it like 2 times, so it would make 2x2-3 penetrating shots. (recharge time same as atg apcr)

It might sound a little bit op, but think about it.
Gain for the allied side: this way with the ability activated m10s and m18s will surely penetrate axis heavies at least for some shots in some critical moments.

Gain for the axis side: no more passive buffs for TDs with top T4, and with proper micro the 2nd and maybe 3rd hvap shot could be dodged . To make things better for the axis I’d suggest the following: using hvap rounds ability could be like supression fire for rifleman, so your opponent could see it. OR we could use the same icon above the TD like we do with 57mm atg when it’s using its apcr rounds. (or we could add some delay time to it)

This was just an idea. You don’t have to send me to hell for it.
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Shabtajus Offline
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Posts: 2564


The very best player of one of the four factions.

« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2012, 05:13:36 am »

go to hell rolcsika just go to hell!!!!!!!
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I feel like if Smokaz and Shab met up it would be a 50/50 tossup to see which one of them robbed the other first.
Tries to convince people he's a good guy,says things like this. Scumbag Shab.
Ahnungsloser Offline
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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2012, 09:37:27 am »

Wolv'packs and "Calling It In!" would step onto a higher stage of being useful...  Cheesy
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CrazyWR Offline
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Posts: 3616


« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2012, 10:14:32 am »

I think part of what smokaz considers the issue is that HVAPs counterpart, APCR, is much stronger
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hans Offline
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Posts: 3497



« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2012, 10:17:06 am »

I think part of what smokaz considers the issue is that HVAPs counterpart, APCR, is much stronger

it is
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Also, bad analogy ground, My vegetables never pissed on my ego when I decided they defeated me and gave up on dessert.
aeroblade56 Offline
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« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2012, 10:19:31 am »

To give it a purchasable buff wouldnt be wise especially on such a frail platform.
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EliteGren Offline
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Posts: 6106


« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2012, 01:21:20 pm »

You cannot put a purchasable buff in a T4. That's what the unlock section is for
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i prefer to no u
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brn4meplz Offline
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« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2012, 01:28:19 pm »

You can give it stronger then usual buffs on a purchasable upgrade(as long as it's not a no brainer upgrade like This unit breathes).

Like the Luft T4 and the ones that revolve around Grenade and AP round uses. That stuff is fine but a separate upgrade is for the unlock section.
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Poppi Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1080


« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2012, 02:09:47 pm »

Wolv'packs and "Calling It In!" would step onto a higher stage of being useful...  Cheesy

does anyone use calling it in?
never have ive seen it pop up in the forums.
I think WP gets more use.... mostly due to a mistake that people think it does something
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Ahnungsloser Offline
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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2012, 02:15:58 pm »

Shermans with the .50cal profit from it. It's ideal if you have a pair of them and engage light armoured vehicles for a massive damage bost. In combination with HVAP it can be a solid plattform against light mechanized companys.

Or even M8's and the Quad Halftracks (+Mark Target) gaining a nice damage boost.


But overall you're right, it's really rarely used... .
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aeroblade56 Offline
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2012, 02:25:37 pm »

i used HVAP today and i never really cared for m18 to begin with but it still bounces quite often of panthers m10 is the only thing noticeable it will usually penetrate. i had this vet 3 m10 that had HVAP long range penetration was derp.
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CrazyWR Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3616


« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2012, 03:45:55 pm »

the big buffs come from AMBUSH.  Use a pair of ambush m18s, calling it in, and laugh when you rape a panther in 30 seconds.
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LeoPhone Offline
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« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 04:03:20 pm »

30 seconds?

if you cant get your panther out of trouble in 30 seconds you're doing it wrong lol
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aeroblade56 Offline
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« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2012, 09:24:18 pm »

yeah if your panther is alone like that wtf are u doing with it hahaha.


M18 ambush hardly ever hits for me :L it always nose dives.
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