Wher tanks are NOT specialized (panther)

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[pqumsieh]

Spartan stop acting like a dick and arguing like a retard. What does realism have to do with anything?

[Spartan_Marine88]

Spartan stop acting like a dick and arguing like a retard. What does realism have to do with anything?

Sorry for assuming there was common sense around here. But hey we can just devolve into name calling.

I guess i can't understand why a units actual fucking use is considered an invalid 'realism' argument. But then i guess im not the big game developer. Oh wait I am! But im under a NDA so i can't say the game im working on, or the company I am apart of.

[lionel23]

Well, realism doesn't need to be brought into this.  If we introduced realism, squads should be bigger, tanks should be able to shoot across the entire map and die in one hit, artillery should be able to fire nonstop... etc.

The panther I find is that you're paying for a heavily armored tank with mediocre AI capabilities but is able to shrug off ATG and Handheld AT shots better than lower tier/classed tanks while at the same time having excellent range and penetration against US tanks at the same tier or lower.  It shouldn't be a 'tiger' and pop infantry with ease and with the amount of panthers popping small 4 man piat squads or for the beefier 6 man RR/Zook squads... well, takes a lot of those squads to overcome one tank, let alone 3-9 on the field or per game.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

I also believe that the Panther's price is more than justified as is, considering you get a tank that can outlast even the toughest of Allied tanks, match the Pershing toe to toe, and shrug off damage from most sources. Adding a decent capability for AI on top of its already prodigious skill in AT would be a little too much bang for your buck, as evidenced by the prior metagame favouring Panthers almost exculsively for Axis armor, alongside doctrinal units.

Additionally, Spartan, a unit's "actual" use would be a realism argument. The "actual use" of something implies how it is used in day-to-day life or used traditionally, therefore implying that you want Panthers in Company of Heroes (a very AT-focused unit) to resemble the Panthers of World War II (a multirole armored unit). Just spelling it out for you, since you don't really seem to get it.

[Smokaz]

I can appreciate the sentiment of Spartan because if you disregard the realism, it's a question of role. The panther meta game may or may not truly have convincingly showed that it was overpowered, but with making the panther less useful for sniping infantry you are changing it's role. It's possible to discuss what role a unit has without at the same time discussing how 'balanced' the unit is.

[CrazyWR]

the panthers role was NEVER to snipe infantry.  What the fuck?

[Spartan_Marine88]

the panthers role was NEVER to snipe infantry.  What the fuck?

No body is arguing its role is. Its designation was a medium tank, that means a variable amount of anti-tank and ant-infantry.

[AmPM]

The Panther has never been an AI tank in the fashion of the Tiger, P4, STuH, etc. in EIRR or vCoH.

When you see a Panther with a decent number of infantry kills its because it has gotten them over the course of a game, similar to an ATG with 7-8 Infantry kills.

Nerfing it because of that is silly, it is not good at fighting infantry pre-nerf and now it's less useful all around due to TD buffs, pool increases and gun nerfs.

STuH + ATG/Stormie spam is the way to play now.

[nikomas]

It does have range lol

Compared to regular tanks? A little, but it's a TD not a tank appearently, and compared to TD's? Not really.

[DarkSoldierX]

Compared to regular tanks? A little, but it's a TD not a tank appearently, and compared to TD's? Not really.

Lets see

TDs that have longer range then the panther -
Firefly
Hetzer
Marder III
Geschutes

TDs that have less range then the panther -
Stug
M10
M18
Jagdpanther


Yeah id say panther has some range compared to other TDs. And not to mention its the 2nd most survivable one.

[AmPM]

Lets see

TDs that have longer range then the panther -
Firefly
Hetzer
Marder III
Geschutes

TDs that have less range then the panther -
Stug
M10
M18
Jagdpanther


Yeah id say panther has some range compared to other TDs. And not to mention its the 2nd most survivable one.

It has 2.5 more range than the M10, M18 an JP. The STuG is not a TD, it does not have the gun or range. It's an infantry support vehicle that can damage armor a little and remove hardpoints.

[DarkSoldierX]

It has 2.5 more range than the M10, M18 an JP. The STuG is not a TD, it does not have the gun or range. It's an infantry support vehicle that can damage armor a little and remove hardpoints.

It still has range. Nikomas is acting like the panther doesnt outrange any of the dedicated TDs.

[8thRifleRegiment]

with the recent m18 buff, no tank can stand up to well microed m18

[pqumsieh]

If we thought the Panther was purely a TD we would have lowered its AI to that of the M10. At 0.4 base accuracy the Panther still has decent AI capabilities. In its previous form the Panther was way too cost effective; increasing its price would have led to the previous issue of it being cost prohibitive. We decided that lowering its AI would be the best route as it maintains its primary duty which is where the bulk of its cost effectiveness is earned.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

Despite what differing conceptions people may have about the Panther tank as of now, it was originally intended as a late-game tank destroyer in Company of Heroes, to mop up what is left of the Allied armor and effectively hasten the end of the game against an uncoordinated Allied team. No matter what its role was in the actual war, its gun in the game was purely intended for killing tanks and infantry who stayed within its range for too long. That worked for Company of Heroes, but it certainly doesn't work for EiRR.

As I said, it was intended as a late-game tank in Company of Heroes, and thus has all the necessary accoutrements. The heavy armor, the powerful gun, and the speed on top of that. The issue is when this is transplanted into the EiRR environment. Obviously, here, we do not have the tech progression for units that exists in Company of Heroes. Allies there rely on the ability to rapidly produce tank destroyers earlier than the Axis can produce Panthers. When these dynamics are foisted upon EiRR, this obviously creates disparity. Axis get access to these late game, heavily-armored units that are very capable of inflicting attrition, as well as surviving the onslaught long enough to be well worth their cost in a protracted fight. Allies still get the standard tanks that are intended to be massed in a charge, an awkward tactic to perform in EiRR.

This is not to say that they are simply the base units from CoH cut-and-pasted into EiRR; I know that there have been extensive changes made to all the units, not to mention doctrine buffs and new units factoring into the equation. In the end, however, I feel that the units still play out their time-worn roles from COH in this game. I think perhaps these changes that are beginning to be made are the right step for EiRR to perhaps shake off the CoH mechanics, intended for a different game type, and differentiate the units into the roles they should properly be playing on such an attrition-focused battlefield. Perhaps players simply need to adapt to the new changes, like some already have, and cease complaints about it.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Well said Vermillion, well said.

[lionel23]

Well said Vermillion, well said.

I couldn't have put it better myself Vermillion, well said my friend.

[DarkSoldierX]

Despite what differing conceptions people may have about the Panther tank as of now, it was originally intended as a late-game tank destroyer in Company of Heroes, to mop up what is left of the Allied armor and effectively hasten the end of the game against an uncoordinated Allied team. No matter what its role was in the actual war, its gun in the game was purely intended for killing tanks and infantry who stayed within its range for too long. That worked for Company of Heroes, but it certainly doesn't work for EiRR.

As I said, it was intended as a late-game tank in Company of Heroes, and thus has all the necessary accoutrements. The heavy armor, the powerful gun, and the speed on top of that. The issue is when this is transplanted into the EiRR environment. Obviously, here, we do not have the tech progression for units that exists in Company of Heroes. Allies there rely on the ability to rapidly produce tank destroyers earlier than the Axis can produce Panthers. When these dynamics are foisted upon EiRR, this obviously creates disparity. Axis get access to these late game, heavily-armored units that are very capable of inflicting attrition, as well as surviving the onslaught long enough to be well worth their cost in a protracted fight. Allies still get the standard tanks that are intended to be massed in a charge, an awkward tactic to perform in EiRR.

This is not to say that they are simply the base units from CoH cut-and-pasted into EiRR; I know that there have been extensive changes made to all the units, not to mention doctrine buffs and new units factoring into the equation. In the end, however, I feel that the units still play out their time-worn roles from COH in this game. I think perhaps these changes that are beginning to be made are the right step for EiRR to perhaps shake off the CoH mechanics, intended for a different game type, and differentiate the units into the roles they should properly be playing on such an attrition-focused battlefield. Perhaps players simply need to adapt to the new changes, like some already have, and cease complaints about it.

I don't mind changes from VCoH though. I mind changes that derp down a unit and make the games factions have less flavor.

I also mind changes that aren't needed at all, on a unit that is unquestionably useful and has always been able to adapt to the meta game.

AKA Dont fix what doesn't need fixing. M18 was having a conflict with the m10 and they were extremely similar. A change was needed then (and they might be OP now) but I am fine with that change.

[CrazyWR]

agree with darksoldier

[RikiRude]

agree with vermillion and dark, but as of right now...

with the recent m18 buff, no tank can stand up to well microed m18

I had my first experience against these new m18s last night, these things are incredible beasts. no longer will i use a panther to chase one down, you need atg and hand held AT to really deal with them.