Thoughts on balance?

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[IJustDontCare]

Umm... those work...

I know staghounds don't get a second repair when you purchase it for sure, maybe something messed up on my end on the other stuff i mentioned, but its not working for me.

[Heartmann]

fjs-a flat increase in health, 65-70

Stuh-that instant kill whole ranger squads? Increase shell arc or decrease range of the shell ?

Puma-pool increase?

Lv armor us- remove T2 capping put as a T4.

More to come

[Jodomar]

That would be really dumb to change core mechanics around like storm shreks. No one would ever use single shrek storms as it would be retarded unless in a mass blob and then you would still have the instant nuke problem. Honestly people, let's not promote bad game play here by making it easy mode for allied armor. How about using a jeep or screening your tank with infantry? It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to deal with storm shreks.

Decrease in storms mp44 cost

Make the walking stuka actually worthwhile to take. It's an arty piece and should preform as such. Currently it's rather lack luster and an annoyance at best unless you have more then one on at the which still makes it less effective then every other piece of arty.

Shotguns should rape buildings they don't, please change.

KT is in a sad place, make it happy again.

Stuh accuracy should go from 1 to .85

Defensive bottom T4 should give increase accuracy to volks at long range.

pak 36 is also a sad unit, please make it happy.

You notice how it's extremely hard to play as all pe in a 3v3 but yet you can have no problem playing as 3 brits. Hmmmm, something seems terribly wrong here and to solve that pe needs man packed support weapons. I see no issue in actually making them a more balanced faction so they can compete at the same level as everyone else. You gave it to the brits so now you need to give them to the pe.

Hetzer is just terrible. It's like a 62% chance to frontally penetrate a Sherman at short range, that just absurd.

Rangers lmg is like  wtf pwn everything gun please, change.

WP off map has got me confused to why it is even there, please fix.

I think that's it for now and if I think of anything else I'll add it in here.

[Spartan_Marine88]

A start would be bringing up certain basics that so far have been neglected due to a attempt to hold on to vcoh mechanics that don't necessairily have any place in EIRR. There are two basics that come to mind.

All armies need a heavy machinegun, a mortar, an atg as well as a hand held at.

All groups generally have this (British were given the 6pdr and a mobile hmg and mortar.) But the Americans do not have any hand held at. PE needs its HMG, mortar and atg. This isn't making things 'mirrored' maybe at the very basics it is a 'mirror' but the rest of the doctrines and units are what are important for making distinctions amongst the armies.

[Smokaz]

Atg vs 88
Hellcat vs Tiger/KT

[SophiaT1991]

Balance is ok, gameplay is bit spammy.


Mandos need pool changes.

AB doc most t3 and t4's are utter shit compared to others. Same with mandos.

had other things but just got a game

[PrinceOfScotland]

mandos just need over all buff, not much but a little. red devils need improving, its worthless compared to the coys you can do with the others. also a pool decrease on the tet maybe, its not worth 9. maybe make it 4 then 3 for the lja.

ab need fixing flat

stuh needs a little nerf

wp needs major buff

[ALLiDOisWIN]

Atg vs 88
Hellcat vs Tiger/KT

+1

[Jodomar]

O, and I almost forgot about the retarded unneeded armor change to the 88 crew as well as the 88/atg change.

[pqumsieh]

You will all be glad to hear that many of the issues you guys have brought up are being addressed. Some have brought up issues that I have just passed onto the BT. Keep it up.

[jackmccrack]

Regular Hotchkiss is 8pop. It should be 6 imo. Upgun stays 8pop.

[ick312]

gentlemen,

well i posted my main conerns already in "my first rage post", but here they are a bit more developed:

FIRST:
what should EIRR be??? what should the scale be?
- mass battle
- many small tactical battles
- spam of units that are buffed by the doctrine

This should be regulated over the resources.

how should the dynamic be?
- should it go into direction of BK-mod (a charge without scouting is a suicide mission, with no effect)
- should it be an action game where units take everything right into their face (like ToV)
- or should it be a mix of both?

SECOND:
Faction Design
how should they differ? what are their characteristics?

my opinion:
AMERICAN: cheap quick mass - very flexibel. doctrine unlocks provide high quality stuff (in one unit type) like the powerful pershing (yes its already cool - no need for further nerfs) Doctrine improve one unit type.
The riflemen is best example for american units. not very powerful but flexibel depending on doctrine they can get smoke grenades, bars, bazooka, assymetric warfare... SO a weak unit which can fit into several roles with ease.
another example is the sherman

Brits: slow and endurable/lot of hp with strong range fight abilities, not very flexibel but in a group they build an impenetrable wall of steel which is slow moving forward.
example of that are the fireflys and their riflemen equipped with riflegrenades or lmgs. The doctrines add a new way to move forward.
as an example arty: increase arty range - ROF.... so shout the axis frontline into pieces and charge the rests with your units. Commando land behind enemy lines destabilize their back and charge. Engeneers break directly through.

Wehrmacht: good high quality stuff a bit flexibel - EXPENSIVE. the doctrines improve the ability of handeling certain situations. (for example heavy support enables support weapons to be used in more risky situations, cause they can now survive a flank attack or omniscience which is perfect to prepare a charge or an arty strike.)
Best example of the Wehrmacht units are the panther (before this ridiculus patches) and the kch. they can hold a lot and slap the allied units BUT if one of them dies - it hurts it really hurts, if a 200 munition squad dies. (but they slay unupgraded inf...)

Panzerelite: cheap very specialsed stuff and very fast. Doctrine add a whole new branch to your company. like the arty and mining possibility of SE, which LW and PJ dont have. LW has ambush possibility and PJ have panzerduell improvements (others could do this aswell, better they are just incredible better)

What impact should the faction have?
should each faction, be equal good in the same role? for example defending, attacking, etc.
yes- they only differ in the options they have for that. for example when it comes to defending: riflemen can build stuff, AB support weapons can cloak etc... so all docs do the same role but different.

no- this is my point of view.
Allies
 do more focus on certain unittypes by their docs. SO they should be equal good on certain missions, but with only their type for example: an armor company on a spearhead mission. well charge with cool tanks, BUT NOT with cool infantry, that should be provided from his allies (in that context attack engies should be moved to inf doc). but with an other specialization the armor player can  also provide arty fire with callis, while the inf is using howi, the AB bombing run (which should be on recharge).

Axis
their docs focus more on roles instead of unit types. So an BK player should be in the attacking role while the def player is setting up a defense line when falls back or the SE player provides arty support.

So allies have to combine certain unit types but each doc has the same efficency on a mission but jsut with different ways. and the axis are more specialised on thier role a BK company should be clearly a better attacker than a terror or PJ so combine for different situations.


SO WHAT ARE YOUR SUGGESTIONS???!!!

first of all: load the balance backup of before the warmap released. it slightly favored the allies, but it was ok.
than increase the fuel cost for ALL TANKS (even for tank130). currently the game is quite quick and vehicle and tank dominated. So make tanks something special!!! (and yes german tanks should be in a direct confrontation better - while allied tanks need more elegant tactics to take them out, but they are cheaper). make it that fuel is a enough for ONE KT and maybe some krads or 1 panther (even that should be sth rare and hard to kill)

AND DONT THINK OF THIS stone-paper-water PRINCIPE its BS a big panther should rock and not be beaten by a cheaper m18 or even damage by a m8 form the back (maybe with hvap)

TANKS SHOULD BE STH SPECIAL AND DEADLY


So on the basis of the pre warmap-patch. i would change the following:

calliope: its an arty unit with covers a broad area, penetrate many armor and (even with small splash) kill infantry, this is to much for an arty unit. Either increase reload time, remove damage to tanks/ vehicles or make that you have to choose which type of barrage you want to fire. (armorpiercing/anti-inf)

sniper axis: improve his range by 10 cause he has to do more work since allied squad are bigger.
Airborne: make that they get offmaps on reload with the right t4 doctrine specialization and a cooldown of 6 or 8  min
Airborne: give them t4 buffs if they are on enemy territory (this will improve the guerrlia warfare efficiency) i suggest to give paratroopers, regeneration, 10% accuracy, 10% damage, +5m sight, + 10% speed + 10 hp on enemy territory.
Airborne: t4 ambush tactics- support weapons can cloak in cover- call in timer reduced by 50 % ALL Airborne leader gain bar - all airborne gain assymetric warfare on recharge (240 sec) all Airborne gain 1 free zook shot(if the squad has not Assymetric warfare).

Tanks in general: my suggestion is to reduce their sight so even they are beasts on the battlefield, they NEED in support. the m10 should keep its sight cause this would fit more to the beeing flexibel and make him to the only tank that can operate with infantry scouts.

m10: either no more crush or make that it stops after 1 man was crushed. price is just too low for such an anti tank and infantry reaper. it has an anti tank gun and is very fast - the inf crush is too much

staghound: decrease rate of fire its just to strong for a t2 unlock and reduce hp

KT: turn it into a beast!!! Nothing shoulg penetrate its frontal armor on long range. on mid range it should be penetrated by paks with AP shells. and in close combat also by AP  shell or pershings. BUT not from m10 m18 sherman pak zooks or coiless!!!
So frontal armor should be really nasty. Gun: it should really hurt so do one of the following: increase accuracy, increase range or increase damage, what ever you do DO NOT TOUCH rate of fire, the slow firing but powerful shout fits into the idea of a slow moving best.

hummel double t3  "longe range destruction" + "incendiary shells" well thats really dicussable. why? simple: instant kill for standing arty. i mean like the idea of this counter arty. buit its quite annoying if the brit arty player has 3 emplacements and the SE player needs only 1 barrage to kill it.

hummel t3 "longe range destruction" idk what the idea was of this but the + 2 shells are not very effective in fact they never hit sth.
it only makes sense against emplacements. So my suggestion stay with the increased range and increase rate of fire drastically. so that you are not have the time hang arround and then walk away. hummel is dammed inaccurate and so not very effective so it should at least cover in a short time a big area. (this is jsut what i expect from a t3 unlock with 10 pop and additional t3 specialization)

terror henschel design: its too weak for a t4. so add regeneration 5-10 hp per minute (allies stop crying its not alot but its a nice addition to fix small scratches. lets assume you do a p4 start and lets assume the game last 40 minutes and the p4 survives thats all in all 200-400 hp SO ONE THIRD or TWO THIRD after 40 minutes thats quite ok.)

So this are the things that i would change on the basis of the pre warmap balance.

ps thanks to the developers for the great mod. and i stand to each word that i wrote in "my first rage post", so axis players its no shame to stack these days

[jackmccrack]

GMC are so strong and durable.

[3rdCondor]

I agree with ick's post.

I love the idea of having doctrines truly reflect their roles.

I would also love to see a huge reduction on upgrades. Fielding 4-6 rangers with thompsons is a problem, but so is a ton of bars, and mp40s, and lmgs etc. I would like to see a lot more infantry with maybe a grenade or a kit on them, but less high powered weaponry. I feel like the full mags "vietnam style" run and gun gameplay really takes away from a more green cover fire and maneuver experience. I would like less upgrades, and fewer armor on the field. If a tank comes on the field, it should be a big deal. Less upguns, skirts, .50s, smoke etc. And no 5 snipers or tons of mortars either.

[rolcsika0128]

I mostly disagree with ick's suggestions tbh. However, I do agree that if we want a more infantry-based metagame, the amount of fuel available needs to be decreased to like 900. As a result of this, tanks would be rare (especially heavies) and precious. (no more 3 panther/2 pershing+calliope companies)

[Mysthalin]

All reducing fuel would achieve is a meta-game completely focused on US light vehicles trying to out-attrition the superior axis infantry, on top of completely shafting PE.

[Headshotkiller]

Why not test a reduced amount of fuel?
Maybe for a week? Few days?
Would create a bit of an atmosphere of old eir 

[tank130]

Thread cleaned.

Keep the personal arguments and pics out of here please.

This is the last warning.

Balance bans are next.

[tank130]

Unrelated topics removed

Just in case some of you are confused. This is the original post and theme of this thread.

I just wanted to give everyone the opportunity to discuss factional balance and any particular issues they might have with the meta-game. Please try to be both constructive and informed on any issues you do decide to bring up.

This is not a discussion amongst everyone, this is your chance to tell me what your thoughts are. If you disagree with someone else I don't want you to make a statement about it. This is simply YOUR opinion, please avoid arguments.

Cheers

[tank130]

So here's the scoop.....


This is your last warning. Anyone posting from this point forward that is not following the simple rules posted by PQ (see above or first post) will be banned for 30 days from balance.

That's it gents, stop fucking around - seriously.