Tank hunters vs mortar smoke

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[Smokaz]

why dont incendiary nades and mortar hts work? I'm confused.  Seems to me that killing the mortar is a simple enough procedure.

Let me also grab this post again. The initial post I made reads:

Right now tank hunters has nothing to fight mortar smoke covered infantry.

This is the problem that only TH still has. Smoke covers a large area, and a 81mm mortar round falling down ever 4-6 seconds will only negate a small part of it. A incendary grenade stopping infantry moving through smoke to kill or displace something? Get real?

What happens when a mortar ht - which both wind and crazy bring up as a smoke cover counter - is rushed by infantry in smoke? It fucking falls back. How can you call it a counter then?

What happens when two incendary grenade PG squad is rushed by a rifle and a flamer in smoke? They throw their nade and then run away, or DIE.

What is being held up as reason for no change are soft counters, or abilities/weapons still functioning to a degree in smoke.

[Smokaz]

This is called evolving an argument.

"I make a blanket statement to base my argument off of: TH has nothing to fight smoke covered infantry!"

"What about Stummels, nades and arguably one of the best mortars in the game?"

"Ok but aside from those!"


Balance pro at work.

Yes wind, deflect the fact that your building buff post was completely useless. It's okay very few other posters read what you type anyway, I'm just feeling charitable

[TheWindCriesMary]

Yes wind, deflect the fact that your building buff post was completely useless. It's okay very few other posters read what you type anyway, I'm just feeling charitable

Actually no it wasn't. I argued that the buff made TH infantry in buildings (and all other infantry nearby) the best suited to fighting in smoke in the game second only to flamers.

I used this to show how, in addition to having multiple things to directly fight in smoke, this gave TH an extra edge over baseline infantry in other doctrines.

So on top of having at nades, MHT's, flame nades, MAGNETIC at nades and stummels... TH also gets an incredibly effective accuracy buff to their infantry when in buildings... something almost every map has in key locations and which every TH player worth their salt makes use of.

So no, you've gained no ground. You also have seen the blanket statement from your original post absolutely dismantled.

It's over.

[Smokaz]

How are you directly fighting something you have to fall back from?

How is missing 4 out of 5 shots in smoke (even if best suited) relevant?

[TheWindCriesMary]

Another big problem with your argument is that it throws its hands up in the air and claims helplessness against combatting the smoke being created in the first place.

AC's with overdrive, scout cars, even IHT's with assault grens inside are all fantastic ways to skirt enemy lines and silence enemy mortars. But no, you've reduced the situation to "PE directly vs smoke" and ignored context or strategic implications beyond simply fighting the enemy directly on the terms it was designed to fight in.

That's not only bad balance, it's a bad playing mindset.

[Smokaz]

*Ignores all the doctrines that produce smoke without mortars*

But it's okay Wind - you can drone on and then eventually this will go in not because I dislike it or you like it, but because it's the best thing to do. Do you really think they will reinvent all the doctrines when everything points toward it being wanted by the devs for all companies to have access to this basic capability through faction or doctrine choice? Look at the other doctrines and know defeat.

[TheWindCriesMary]

*Ignores all the doctrines that produce smoke without mortars*

But it's okay Wind - you can drone on and then eventually this will go in not because I dislike it or you like it, but because it's the best thing to do. Do you really think they will reinvent all the doctrines when everything points toward it being wanted by the devs for all companies to have access to this basic capability through faction or doctrine choice? Look at the other doctrines and know defeat.

When it comes to demonstrating that TH has no units which can fight allied units in smoke you have, as Christopher Hitchens would say, all of your work still ahead of you. One of the biggest obstacles that still remains in your way is the fact that they have several.

You made a claim and based an argument off of it. That claim was shown to be invalid. There really isn't anything more to discuss.

[NightRain]

Well to be fair.

What can I do versus a approaching smoke, flamer and zook riflemen horde? I'm forced to lose the ground because the flamers will tortch my units from buildings (I would know, I love buildings) and my AT units are forced back due to a single zook riflemen. What doesn't finish my infantry off gets naded. A good strategy yes. If someone suggests Stummels again they must've not used them. Slow and inaccurate firing not recommendable for anything not to mention the pak36 you get with the unlock as well.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I'll give you a great example of a recent meta game shift which required me to adjust my TH company to face smoke-based allied companies.

Back a few months ago RRs + crocs were all the rage. There was much despairing and gnashing of teeth that this was an unbeatable combination and that all PE players might as well delete their companies because the end was nigh. This was bullshit as usual from the very vocal aspect of the EiR playerbase that is the first to cry doomsday when adversity is encountered.

As is so often the case, people equated something they would have to adjust their companies to fight with something that was "overpowered".

So here's what I did with my TH. I added goliaths, regular mines 2 MHT's and yes, if you can believe it, stummels. I also added a number of AC's to prevent the enemy player from being able to rely on his mortars for more than a few barrages of smoke. When it was an infantry player with officer-based smoke, I would rely on assassinating them with the AC's, goliaths or even a jagpanther round (quite effective vs single targets) during the cooldown.

For large infantry rushes when smoke was already deployed, I'd plant the mines just in front of my line, wait for the inf blob to hit them and get supressed. Then use stummels and mht's (which were about 40m behind my lines to shell the suppressed infantry. Or i'd send in goliaths or sprinting infantry with flame nades to turn the tables. I'd also get my infantry into the nearest house asap where I would then focus fire on the flame engineers. I once even had an opposing player in-game remark "WTF is the point of smoke if your Pgrens can kill my flamers from inside a house in seconds?!!"

It took a bit of innovation, and it wasn't exactly easly, but it was effective. It required me to change the way I wanted to play, but instead of seeing this as some unholy affront to my sensibilities and my "desired playstyle" it was a good thing.

People should be forced to adapt outside their comfort zone in a strategy game instead of making balance posts to adapt the strategy game to their comfort zone. Smokaz hasn't learned this in 3 years.

[Valexandes]

I just want to say that anyone who thinks a stummel is not useful is clearing incapable of using them. They are incredibly useful, in pairs. They will destroy any group of infantry and easily handle any units in smoke.

[Spartan_Marine88]

People should be forced to adapt outside their comfort zone in a strategy game instead of making balance posts to adapt the strategy game to their comfort zone.

It will never happen. People want to be able to spam assault grens and be able to mow down rifles and shermans.

[I2ay]

It will never happen. People want to be able to spam assault grens and be able to mow down rifles and shermans.

Do you even play anymore? How many people "spam" assault grens?

[TheVolskinator]

QQ I want assault flammens and incendiary humels for TH! Remove smoke, smoke OP! Nurf everything!

[CrazyWR]

I just get increasingly bothered by the "my current favourite unit/doctrine can't do everything and that's a problem we need to fix" approach to balancing in this mod.

Broken things should be balanced. Slightly annoying things should not.

I wish these forums would stop being used (and everyone seems to do this) as people's personal lobbying platform for moving doctrine's closer to their preferences instead of being forced to move closer to their doctrine's.

this has been smokaz approach to balance over the past week or two over and over again and its incredibly tiresome.

[Tymathee]

this has been smokaz approach to balance over the past week or two over and over again and its incredibly tiresome.

agreed. that's generally how it goes "omg, my rape fest coy can't beat this, so fix it!"

[Heartmann]

I agree with smokie al cots should have a form of hard counter

[brn4meplz]

We've added minesweepers as default. We could work flamethrowers into each PE doctrine as a baseline.


It'd either have to be on speciality T1 unlocks or as a new unit. The Assault Flamen grens would need a tweak, but they already do need one.


We could give flamers to Luftwaffles, panzer pios, and hetzers. Though I'm not convinced flame hetzers would solve the smoke issue vs airborne companies.

Upgrade pool values cold limit spam on them but those Luftwaffles and panzer pios would be some damn large squads with flamers

[CrazyWR]

might as well just remove doctrines and call it AXIS or ALLIES even though they'll be the same

[NightRain]

We've added minesweepers as default. We could work flamethrowers into each PE doctrine as a baseline.

Upgrade for standard Panzer Grenadiers. If you buy flamethrower you can't buy Vet Sgt for sprint. This is because it would overshine the SE Unlock which gives flammen grenadiers which not only has MP44s and airborne armor but also ability to gain sprint.

[Tymathee]

Don't ballistic weapons generally not suffer smoke penalties? Like Rifle Nades?

Y not change stummel to be like a large rifle grenade on wheels, bonuses against things in cover, in garrison, through smoke but normal against red and yellow.

This will give stummel a defined role that is easily recognizable also that bottom t3 that gives acc bonus vs things in cover will make sense.