Proposed stormtrooper change

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[nikomas]

Revisiting this, this is my idea... Axe stormtroopers entirely un their current form or relegate them to a reward unit, they fit the bill quite well no? Reward Ninjas. Replace them with "Assault" and "Recon" equipment in place of the stormtrooper unlock, these can be bought for your grenadiers for an additional manpower cost like veteran sergeants work.

"Recon kit" - Gives the squad sprint and cloak in cover, sort of alike to falls but I think it'll be alright, gives an ambush bonus when ambushing out of cover, but no moving cloak, lets the squad equip bundle grenades and G41/43's (The elite grenadier rifles).

"Assault kit" - Gives an armor (elite) and health buff to the grenadiers, lets the squad equip 2 shrecks or MP44's, but no bundle grenades. it's a tougher platform but less mobile and has no cloak.


Yes it turns the grenadiers into pseudo PE squads, but I think this idea is way more interesting than simply faffing about with stormtroopers and more importantly it fits the idea of a blitzkrieg doctrine more than infiltration units do. Specialized fast recon or heavy assault fits blitz better than magic ninjas I think....

Failing that, just make two different kinds of stormtroopers based on the blueprint above, Assault and Recon troopers, but drop the vanilla cloak entirely. This would also let us get rid of the retardedly effective T4 that is battle hardend by building the elite armor into one of the unit types itself, and have a more interesting T4 replace it. It's a boring T4, but way to bloody effective.

While at it you should axe falls moving cloak, but at least that one is worse and is a T4... As I said before, I dont think stormtroopers are unbalanced per se, I just thing they are retarded all around.

[TheVolskinator]

Get on vent;

+1 to the idea

[Demon767]

Weird idea.

Your idea will most likely be seen as warmap carda, and storms remaining the same.

[AmPM]

Revisiting this, this is my idea... Axe stormtroopers entirely un their current form or relegate them to a reward unit, they fit the bill quite well no? Reward Ninjas. Replace them with "Assault" and "Recon" equipment in place of the stormtrooper unlock, these can be bought for your grenadiers for an additional manpower cost like veteran sergeants work.

"Recon kit" - Gives the squad sprint and cloak in cover, sort of alike to falls but I think it'll be alright, gives an ambush bonus when ambushing out of cover, but no moving cloak, lets the squad equip bundle grenades and G41/43's (The elite grenadier rifles).

"Assault kit" - Gives an armor (elite) and health buff to the grenadiers, lets the squad equip 2 shrecks or MP44's, but no bundle grenades. it's a tougher platform but less mobile and has no cloak.


Yes it turns the grenadiers into pseudo PE squads, but I think this idea is way more interesting than simply faffing about with stormtroopers and more importantly it fits the idea of a blitzkrieg doctrine more than infiltration units do. Specialized fast recon or heavy assault fits blitz better than magic ninjas I think....

Failing that, just make two different kinds of stormtroopers based on the blueprint above, Assault and Recon troopers, but drop the vanilla cloak entirely. This would also let us get rid of the retardedly effective T4 that is battle hardend by building the elite armor into one of the unit types itself, and have a more interesting T4 replace it. It's a boring T4, but way to bloody effective.

While at it you should axe falls moving cloak, but at least that one is worse and is a T4... As I said before, I dont think stormtroopers are unbalanced per se, I just thing they are retarded all around.

Or, give Stormtroopers a time limit on cloak...20 seconds of cloak perhaps and a slightly faster move speed than current. Put it on cooldown. Use it to get in, or get out, but not just to hang around.

[Tymathee]

make it like the old AB cloak doc ability, they can only cloak without moving, pure ambush unit. No more ninja

[Demon767]

shutup tym

[Tymathee]

[Vermillion_Hawk]

I agree with Tym - cloaking while moving is barely acceptable when it does to snipers, offset by that unit's evident weaknesses, but when it's applied to a Schreck-shooting grenade-tossing elite armored death squad, it's pushing it quite a bit.

[nikomas]

No fuck that shit, blitzkrieg should take after it's name, a mobile assault/breakthrough doctrine, FUCK "Standard" CLOAK, FUCK INFILTRATION TROOPS.

Jesus Christ, that was the main point.


Fyi, putting a "timer" on the their cloak implies you think it's overpowered, I said earlier, I dont want them changed on any balance ground, I want them changed for better gameplay and better doctrinal fits. Putting a timer on/restricting their current cloak while retaining what they have makes them gimped.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Why are we still obsessed with changing units in this mod just for the sake of it?

EiR has a serious need of some Ockham's Razor going on in these balance forums.

[nikomas]

Why are we still obsessed with changing units in this mod just for the sake of it?

I dont want a lot of things changed, hell, I dont even have a problem countering storms, I dont think they are very inbalanced either, but I want them gone...

1. The only unit in the game with moving vanilla moving cloak, do we really need that?
2. In a game of attrition and vet persistence, something that can just walk around the lines in a 3v3 and alpha something is quite... awkward.

3. While it can be countered _{(As I said, I can do it with good success)} you need to prepare for that unit specifically, few to no other units in this game require you to fit extra units to even stand a chance _{(jeeps/recon squads and then some fast AI)}[/i] to keep them off your tanks, and without tools like mark target it becomes significantly more difficult.


I'm not saying it's unbalanced, I'm saying it's really awkward, remember how we changed the assault ability from squad locked to a, well, more assault like ability? The main reason was not balance per se, it was because the only way to avoid it was to retreat and retreating in EiRR = Lost squad, it did not jive well with EiRR deisgn. I dont think the storm does either, that's why I suggested two variations that could fill the same roles (One recon long range skirmisher squad, one durable shreck/assault squad) but without the ninja bullshite awkwardness.

[Demon767]

It being the only unit that can move and cloak which is not a sniper is not grounds for changing the unit. Many other units have unique abilities the another unit doesn't have. Removing cloak is just fucked. I agree with Wind.

And yet Nikomas, Storms have been in EIRR since the dawn of EIR.

Holy shit storms are a mobile breakthrough force. Leave them plox

[TheVolskinator]

Can we see some real balance arguments, not just 'it was this way for a long time therefore stfu'.

[AmPM]

The only balance issues with Stormtroopers are double schreks, and elite armor (which may not even be an issue once the schrek issue is fixed).

[TheWindCriesMary]

Your post is a perfect summation of exactly why a unit like Stormtroopers should not be changed. It's also a great summary of everything that I think is wrong with EiR's balance forums:

1. I dont want a lot of things changed, hell, I dont even have a problem countering storms, I dont think they are very inbalanced either, but I want them gone...

If you dont think something is unbalanced, and you don't have a problem countering them, then there is no reason to post a balance thread trying to get them changed. The amount of important changes already heaped upon EiR's dev team notwithstanding, it's banal and nonsensical to start changing units in EiR just for the hell of it.

For one thing, it creates an even bigger and more unneccessary obstacle for new and returning players to take up the mod. Secondly, it's just bad balance justification. It fosters EiR's emerging broken balance culture of "let's change things because we can" which has seem tremendously more harm done to balance historically.

2. "The only unit in the game with moving vanilla moving cloak, do we really need that?"

So now we balance units to make them more like every other unit in the game? Yeah, don't sign me up for that crazy mod please.

3. In a game of attrition and vet persistence, something that can just walk around the lines in a 3v3 and alpha something is quite... awkward.

This isn't an argument. "it's awkward" is not a position advocating good balance, it's advocating a subjective desire for one person's idea of aesthetically pleasing gameplay. In order to make a change to the game, there should be exceptional justification. Otherwise, it's infinitely better not to change something.

4. I'm not saying it's unbalanced, I'm saying it's really akward, remember how we removed the old assault? The main reason was not balance per se, i

Assault nades were completely unbalanced. They were an "i win" button that did hugely disproportionate damage for their cost and ease of use. That's why they were removed.

5. While it can be countered (As I said, I can do it with good success) you need to prepare for that unit specifically, few to no other units in this game require you to fit your coy with extra jeeps and recon squads to keep them off your tanks, and without tools like mark target it becomes significantly more difficult.

Of all the things you've said, this is the one I find to be the most dangerous and blatantly harmful to the gameplay of this mod.

It is absolutely a terrible idea to try and whitewash this mod's gameplay to the point where it is seen as undesirable to have to prepare your company to meet specific threats... and to have to expend effort, co-ordination and time protecting your units from a myriad of potential threats.

I think it is absurd and completely counter-productive to good gameplay to resent units in the game which add complexity and which force opponents to have to adapt and play smarter, more carefully and in better co-ordination with their teammates.

If you don't have to change your company at all to face 6 different possible enemy doctrines with 3 different possible T4's each and their own associated unlocks... then we've really got a problem on our hands with EiR.

So no, just no.


Ockham's razor is how balance should be done around here. Adding unnecessary complications and changes merely on whim is not acceptable.

[BaleWolf]

How about you go and play a game that doesn't have stormtroopers. Like starcraft, then you can write blizzard about how motherships can be changed.

[Demon767]

Can we see some real balance arguments, not just 'it was this way for a long time therefore stfu'.

Poor arguments only start from other poor arguments.

[Smokaz]

I call a vote to cut wind with a razor

[tankmaster23]

 I like the idea ...

 Rocksitter

[NightRain]

Here's the idea.

Remove double schreck ability. No one will QQ about Stormtroopers ever again.