State of Balance

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[Tymathee]

I don't really have time to file through all the threads, but a quick search shows me that dual shreks and storms in general have been a controversial subject since 2009.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=10450.0
http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=9524.0

I did same search, it doesn't matter. I could've gone further but i felt 3 was enough.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=10450.0

Stormtroopers with dual shreks have always been amazingly good, why did the price get decreased from 150 each to 125 each?

They're already insanely good and it got a price decrease? 

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=9524.0

I am inclined to agree, but I dont know if outright nerfing the unit would be correct. Reinstating their vcoh weakness (supression resistance) however would go a long way into making them harder to use. Right now any noob can use storms because they just cloak and run around the corner without being supressed. Just look at the wehr unit leaderboards, it looks like this:

Stormtrooper
Stormtrooper
Stormtrooper
Stormtrooper
Stormtrooper
...

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=23269.0

300 manpower 300 munition (+ other upgrades if one wants them) 5 pop on field. Big munition dump high risk reward but is ultimately powerful in the reward department.

So I purpose this change:

Allow Stormtroopers only buy 1 Schreck only. Maybe allow 2nd through doctrine, but vanilla Stormtroopers 1 Schreck upgrade only. It reduces the double Storms alpha striking a unit but still allows Stormtroopers to ambush vehicles.

[Hicks58]

*Angry rant*

There's only two things I'm gonna reply to you with, considering you've gone beyond the point of rational thought and desire only to see red.

First, both Tank and Tym beat me to posting how this has been an ongoing issue in EiR. I'm willing to bet it has been complained about behind the forums well before that as well.

Secondly, I suggest you take a look at my recent posts in the balance forum. Pretty sure you owe EiRR $100.

[puddin]

Sure i will be cordial.  here ya go there tank ol buddy ol pal.

I see that storms have had only 1 change to them from VCOH, And thats supression to match the Grens.  Thats it, Thats the only change, not a single buff, and they are the most expensive infantry unit in the game.  With a bundled nade they are 8 pool cost and a medkit costing 370 muntions with double shreks, without the bundled nade, 325 Mu, and 300 MP.  So 5 Double shreck squads, with repair kits on tanks and some med kits is all you can afford in an entire company for the most part.

So they have been talked about in the fourms.... thats your Argument right now.... Oh they have had some controversy?

here i have a realy serious question for all of you. Let me Preface it with a set up.

The Doctrines were ripped out and not implemented to balence all of the base units int he game for about 6 months, is that correct tank and Hicks?  Oh the answer is yes.

So since theose base units were all balenced and the storm troopers have not changed in that balence, nor have they changed since then.  So If thats the case, I can;t for the life of me understand what needs to be balenced with them...

But hey, Here is my balence suggestion if this happens, If you get tank reapers as Infantry you only get 1 zook.... heck, make Airborne only get 1 RR...

But Oh yes.. the Exhaustion factor.... Thats soooooo terrible.  Your unsupressable with fireup, Run in, Shoot, Run away, heal up rinse and Repeat. 

a Storm squad has to Crawl to safty and can not actually get away, unless you have blitz, which you can not clock with, and only useable max 3 times and your using a teir 3 unlock as well. 

But hey, I guess a Unit that has not been changed needs to change.  because int he world of this EIR balence decisions, Axis get no man packed AT, while the Allies get all of it. 

OH, CRAP!!!! I REMEMBER NOW!!!! Storms were changed a 2nd time!!!!! 
Their Medium and Long range Shreck accuracy was REDUCED to compisate for the Lack of suppression... 

So you mean to tell me... a unit is streghenthened, then weakened back to its orginial overall power.  But now, its magically to strong still???

Fine i will use PE Falls Double Shrecks, then you will remove those, then i will use rrs, and tank reapers, goign to remove those next? 

All i see is the last bastion of Axis Man Packed At, i should just start doing defensive, cheaper grens with shreks.... why not.... i am sure in time if all the axis switched to that it will be considered op then too.

[PonySlaystation]

Oh wait, we are doing ANOTHER doctrine rework, which will lead to a whole other pile of unit rebalacing and doctrine balancing. Great, cyclical balance....

It's not a rework. Some doctrines like Airborne receive a larger overhaul but most of them just need small changes.


Then I think there are several points that people are missing.

Airborne does not have a complete doctrine. Their current cost (even if slightly reduced) is left from the last Airborne doctrine which included buffs to RRs (+20% damage for example). Attack ground can be used to increase their effective range. Airborne are more survivable than Stormtroopers, having more health, fire up as well as doctrinal commando smoke.

Just because Airborne RRs aren't as good and schrecks are good, does that mean schrecks have to be nerfed? Because what I see is that schrecks are useful similar to heavy artillery, while Airborne as a whole are not worth it as they don't even have a doctrine for christ sake.


Removing Elite Armor is a bad idea as it would nerf regular stormtroopers and the already too expensive STG44s. Maybe it could just be changed to no elite armor with double schrecks?

Removing double schrecks would be huge nerf to blitz doctrine, similar to removing the possibility to have 2 RRs or 2 Bazookas on AB/Rangers. They don't have heavy artillery, stormtroopers are their way of countering AT guns. They're a huge investment, two stormtroopers with schrecks are the same price as 56 grenades and they are fragile units, after initial first attack, they can be hunted down and killed because they have very limited means of escaping unlike AB.

[Hicks58]

You know what, pulling apart and shredding your post piece by piece, at this point, is no longer worth the effort involved. It's shocking how passionately you can argue for something whilst at the same time having little to no clue how balance seems to bloody work in the first place.

I'm going to take just one example from your post, because tbh, that's all I can be arsed to do now.

This quote here, tells me that the only thing you are interested in, is a simple "Eye for an eye" treatment on your beloved Storms:

But hey, Here is my balence suggestion if this happens, If you get tank reapers as Infantry you only get 1 zook.... heck, make Airborne only get 1 RR...

You see that? That's a person screaming "WELL IF I CANT HAVE IT, THEY CANT EITHER!" This is not a reasoned statement. This a statement from a person who seems be in one of two positions. You either have no fucking idea how handheld AT works cross faction, or you DO and you are trying to have things nerfed into your ridiculously skewed perception of how much an advantage Axis handheld should have. Either one is worrying.

Now here's what I'll do. I'll tell you why that quoted post of yours is full of shit. It takes TWO RR's to be able to deal the same damage as ONE Shreck, with comparable penetration rates. The reason that Zooks will do more damage, is because they can't penetrate the front armour of anything bigger than an Ostwind for shit.

It takes a small essay just to pull ONE of your ill informed statements to bits in a level of language that you should understand. This is why I can no longer be arsed trying to reason with you at this point. You are literally spewing too much shit to cope with on a reasonable level.

[Spartan_Marine88]

No one takes Puddin seriously Hicks, your wasting your time arguing with him. Not to mention the fact that it takes either a half hour just to decipher his posts, or at least two-fifths of whiskey.

Just do what most of us do, pretend he never posted and move on.

[PonySlaystation]

Now here's what I'll do. I'll tell you why that quoted post of yours is full of shit. It takes TWO RR's to be able to deal the same damage as ONE Shreck, with comparable penetration rates. The reason that Zooks will do more damage, is because they can't penetrate the front armour of anything bigger than an Ostwind for shit.

TR zooks penetrate Panthers front armor reliably. RRs would also get buffs if they had a doctrine. AB are a better infantry platform. They can paradrop and kill enemy artillery/repairing tanks. Fire-up helps survivability, meaning that they can fire again, cloak only helps first strike. Schrecks have longer aim time as well as time between shots and scatter makes RRs more accurate, especially at max range.

I think what needs to happen is that the Blitzkrieg ability should not allow stormtroopers cloak during the ability, giving them super speed. Double schrecks moved to a T2 unlock and removal of Elite Armor for Double Schreck Stormtroopers. I think this is an appropriate change, I think it's important not to overnerf it like the removal of double schrecks entirely, as this is one of the core units in Blitzkrieg doctrine. Then when AB doc is implemented it will have nice damage buffs, giving them zero combat buffs again would not be a good idea.

[Smokaz]

Stormie shreks were griped about without doctrines ever since the supply drop newbie advantage. I don't think you can go further back than the implementation of the noob supply drop for complaints. And that seems like a issue on its own.

[Hicks58]

TR zooks penetrate Panthers front armor reliably. RRs would also get buffs if they had a doctrine. AB are a better infantry platform. They can paradrop and kill enemy artillery/repairing tanks. Fire-up helps survivability, meaning that they can fire again, cloak only helps first strike. Schrecks have longer aim time as well as time between shots and scatter makes RRs more accurate, especially at max range.

I think what needs to happen is that the Blitzkrieg ability should not allow stormtroopers cloak during the ability, giving them super speed. Double schrecks moved to a T2 unlock and removal of Elite Armor for Double Schreck Stormtroopers. I think this is an appropriate change, I think it's important not to overnerf it like the removal of double schrecks entirely, as this is one of the core units in Blitzkrieg doctrine. Then when AB doc is implemented it will have nice damage buffs, giving them zero combat buffs again would not be a good idea.

TR Zook penetration vs Panther UNSKIRTED frontal armour is 17.9% You know how reliable that is? Reliable in the sense of 1 in 6 zooks will penetrate. That shit is not reliable.

Panzershrecks no longer have any aim time, just 0.25 seconds of ready time, which essentially means that Shrecks can fire instantly. The same goes for all other handheld AT weapons. As long as the solider is aiming the weapon at the target, the round will be fired. Zero waiting.

RR's do not reload faster than Shrecks. 7-9 reload for RR, 7.5-8.5 reload for the Shreck. For all intents and purposes it's the same.

That's three blatantly incorrect things you have said as fact Pony.

[Smokaz]

Keep it moving is also pretty OP on storms, how about we redo this one and blitzkrieg to not give sprint. That would help a lot. Let keep it moving give % damage bonus instead sprint to support a frontal assault, making two shreks hitting 2 shot the atg for instance and maybe a small supression resistance.

I think this will really reduce the problem, because its only when they have sprint available that they are truly very hard to counter, its doable at the loss of vet perhaps and by sacrificing some units to have storms killed or retreated off, almost any trade is worth it for allies to remove two double shreks from a blitzkrieg player.

[smurfORnot]

then you will hear complaints about how shreck kill tanks who wanna charge them,circle stug/tiger etc. etc.
You change it to more dmg,and people will cry,just wait for it,lol

[Tymathee]

Keep it moving is also pretty OP on storms, how about we redo this one and blitzkrieg to not give sprint. That would help a lot. Let keep it moving give % damage bonus instead sprint to support a frontal assault, making two shreks hitting 2 shot the atg for instance and maybe a small supression resistance.

I think this will really reduce the problem, because its only when they have sprint available that they are truly very hard to counter, its doable at the loss of vet perhaps and by sacrificing some units to have storms killed or retreated off, almost any trade is worth it for allies to remove two double shreks from a blitzkrieg player.

can they sprint/blitz in cloak? cuz theres blitzkrieg as well, which ups their rof on top of speed increase.

[smurfORnot]

they can't sprint in cloak.

[PonySlaystation]

That's three blatantly incorrect things you have said as fact Pony.

Sorry, I don't know these things like you do hicks.

[tank130]

Puddin,

I am with Hicks in regards to - "that's all I can be arsed to do now." I don't have time to quote your entire post, but your entire post is summed up this sentence.

But hey, I guess a Unit that has not been changed needs to change.

1.) This is not vCoH. The longer this mod goes on, and the more mechanical changes made, the more we will discover changes that need to be made to the units. All the units from vCoH were designed for that gaming environment.
We must realize by now, that not every unit and unit stat from vCoH is going to balance or be conducive to a new game environment - EiRR

2.) You have been with this mod for a very long time. Seven months longer then myself TBH. You should know damn well that production in this mod is slow at the best of times and near non existent at the worst of times. What that means is sometimes it takes for fucking ever for an issue to be resolved.

Let's take the Balance team for example. We have had 3 or four complete changes in the balance team. In fact, sometimes it is easier to count the people who have not been on the BT then the ones that have (sarcasm). At other times we have had no active BT for months at a time.
What that means is a year can go by before anyone actually re-engages a topic in the balance forums to be discussed. It sucks, but it's the truth.

For Example:
Dec 15, 2010 - Storms brought up in the BT forums
Jan 11, 2012 - Storms brought up again
Current - Storms brought up again

3 different balance teams with 3 different balance leads. Two fucking years later and we are still discussing the potential problem.

What this means is, the statement, "It was never a problem before, why are we changing it" -  is useless, meaningless and childish.

As this mod evolves and grows, it will need to be rebalanced and changed accordingly. Get over it already......

For Example:
We no longer have infinite repair. (no engie blobs or repair bunker spam). Balance means we need to do something with what causes damage or how damage is taken. That may or may not mean double shrek storms need to be adjusted.




tl;dr

This is not vCoH. We changed the main game environment and units must be adjusted to suit the Eirr Environment.

[skaffa]

For Example:
Dec 15, 2010 - Storms brought up in the BT forums
Jan 11, 2012 - Storms brought up again
Current - Storms brought up again

3 different balance teams with 3 different balance leads. Two fucking years later and we are still discussing the potential problem.

What this means is, the statement, "It was never a problem before, why are we changing it" -  is useless, meaningless and childish.

Just because it has been discussed in the BT forums does not mean it was a problem/issue.

You could also say that the BT has reviewed Storms several times in the past alrdy and that all the different BTs, with diff leads and members, never saw a reason to change them.

/devilsadvocate

trololol

[tank130]

Just because it has been discussed in the BT forums does not mean it was a problem/issue.

You could also say that the BT has reviewed Storms several times in the past alrdy and that all the different BTs, with diff leads and members, never saw a reason to change them.

/devilsadvocate

trololol

Very good point Skaffa.

It also emphasizes the fact that this has been an ongoing controversy since 2010. So claims by some community members like "Why is this all of a sudden a problem" are false and misleading.

It also emphasizes the fact that balance is an on going process and changes will continue for as long as the mod grows and changes.

[Tymathee]

If you fail to evolve your thinking, you fail to grow.

Just because storms may not have been a problem in the past, doesn't mean they can't be now.

Some abilities and/or units weren't around then but are now, thus possibly creating inbalances that weren't an issue before.

Also, we have a lot of new players and will have more as EIRR goes more mainsteam with the warmap so making things easier that don't require having to be a veteran to master a counter would be very advantageous to the overall player base.

[8thRifleRegiment]

stormies are an essential dynamic to wehrmacht gameplay, by only simply removing them, we are not solving anything but rather dumbing down our game furthur.

[Tymathee]

stormies are an essential dynamic to wehrmacht gameplay, by only simply removing them, we are not solving anything but rather dumbing down our game furthur.

I dont want them removed like the roo, i want them changed like the T -17. Still effective but not insane.