Goliath

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[Hicks58]

Yes, you sacrifice ATG's, support weapons and Snipers.

However, you no longer need them as the Goliaths are now filling their role. Not only that, you can simply field a crap ton of recrew infantry alongside the Goliaths and just use any support weapons that survive the Goliath's blast (It can happen if you detonate outside of short range).

Whilst a mechanised company would be the ideal piece to work against Goliaths, it would still struggle if you played defensively and hid the Goliaths in cover where they can camo. At that point, it's simply a matter of luring the vehicles into the death zones - Any LV will instantly die from a Goliath blast.

If a user is on your skill level, they will still struggle. If they do not have a mechanized company specifically set up against Goliath spam, then instead of struggling, they will suffer.

[rolcsika0128]

Yes, you can say that I sacrifice my support weapons for goliaths. But by doing so, I put myself into a risky situation. By getting shittons of goliaths and no support weapons, you will not be able to slowly push your opponent ouf of the field. You have to take risks and attack at all cost, since if you don't do so, the enemy will slowly kill you.

You can say it's a two-edged blade. Taking bigger risk (the munition investment into a very vulnerable unit) comes with bigger profit, or fails hard. It's the same for evey part of life.

[nikomas]

Unless it's allies attack, then suddenly all the backdraws you just listed dont exist anymore, yay!

[rolcsika0128]

Unless it's allies attack, then suddenly all the backdraws you just listed dont exist anymore, yay!

Well, goliaths can't be everywhere at the same time, can they? Do a recon, attack the other side.. then golis have to reposition and attack = my argument still lives.

[Hicks58]

Let's have a look at your suggestions then:

7 Balancing Suggestions:

-Cap on total amount you can bring (spam reduction)

-Target priority (sneaking it in with an attack is what makes it so easy to use)

-Increase it's turning speed (less pathing issues, easier to use, makes up for reductions in other areas)

-Decrease it's bonus speed from roads (can't run, don't have time to stop and shoot, specially when a hoard comes down a road)

-Make similar changes to how the Stuh shell was changed.  Improve anti building capabilities, decrease capabilities against light and heavy cover (you can't run from them, except for retreating, so should get bonus for sticking to cover)

-0.5 meter sight range when cloaked instead of none

-Less speed reduction when going through things such as water

1. Hard caps suck balls and only hide a problem. The only place that hard caps should ever truly exist is for super-heavies.

2. Changing the priorities for Goliaths will mean changing the core characteristics of the unit. This is bad.

3. Increasing turning rate of Goliaths will make them effective in urban environments, which is one of the few places where infantry can effectively "lose" them with swift micro.

4. I can agree with killing the huge speed bonus on the roads. As it stands you can slingshot them into tanks before the turret can get a bead on you (Medium tanks or above).

5. Changing what the Goliath can be used against will again, change it's core characteristics. The Goliath is an anti blob/building/damaged tank unit. If jumping in cover is all it takes to negate it then it goes right from OP to UP in a single slash.

6. No. If you give Goliaths sight range then you could just go leave a couple in a few bushes out of the way and hit detonate as soon as you see a bit of colour on the minimap pop up. Imagine cloaked demo charges which could blow up your LV's instantly/wreck any damaged armour.

7. That'd just encourage bad play. Part of Goliath use is thinking ahead and planning how you move it. If you're dumb enough to try and send it through swampy terrain then you deserve what you get.

Now, you've mentioned all sorts of statistical changes, hard cap changes, etc. Not once did you mention the price of the unit itself though - At it's current effectiveness it's easily worth 150 munitions when you look at what it can do. What? 150 munitions you say? THAT'S AN OUTRAGE!

Um, an ATG is 140 munitions, and then you've got the MP surplus on top of that. That's considering an "Average" target. If Goliaths become pricey they become the gamblers weapon rather than another gimmick. That, or they become reserved for 1 or 2 in a company and are deployed with some thought and intended targets.

[rolcsika0128]

I'm so proud what we achieved, Shab! :') *Brofist*

[tank130]

Protip coming: Learn to play before you learn to complain please!

Luckily for you, you had the opportunity to make some intelligent posts after this one and before the Dev team got here......

Flame remarks are not tolerated in the balance forums and will get you a 30 day vacation.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

But atleast he used it more effectively unlike when you were running with it trying to prove to myst(or someone) that it was OP.

Also weapon cache, That is all.

Tankedit: Unrelated material removed

[PonySlaystation]

The main issue seems to be the pricing. Most upgrades are priced after vCOH, with minor adjustments, usually price increases. But the Goliath in vCOH costs 125 MU. So it's 35 MU cheaper in EIR. The problem is that at 90 MU you can rush in, kill any unit and get your moneys worth. Kill a BAR Riflemen, an officer, an M8 or an ATG and you'll always get your moneys worth. If the price was increased to 125 then Goliaths would still be useful for taking out high priority targets like ATGs and Howizers, which is what it's for in the first place, but you wouldn't be able to spam them effectively as a counter to any unit like you can now.

As for ATGs being able to counter them, they miss most of the time. RCA and TR ATGs are more successful but then again you shouldn't charge Goliaths head on against ATGs, you should flank them. But still, even if you have RCA or TR ATGs or AB Quads then you can still use a Goliath to effect by just using Screeners or Smoke. Because as already mentioned, they will prioritize other units before the Goliath and you can't hit it in Smoke.

I think the best solution is simply to change the price to 125 MU as changing priorities could lead to other potential problems.

[puddin]

The math makes sense...  

Want to know what i hate???  A satchel Charge on a Grenade timer!!!!  isn;t that an ability... 1 second goliath boom whn thinking hey, i might lose a guy or 2, but not the squad...  

And ya know what, its cheaper and you can get more.  

guess what, a lot of things can kick you ass.  Its fuckign war game.  things go boom, and people die.  Amazing how it works.  

HE perdshing anyone??  goliath shots on the move...  He shermans, same thing, oh except you don;t die to small arms.  

Welsome to war.

[Mysthalin]

*Myst signal activated*

I personally think the Goliath is the most cost IN-efficient unit you can get. A hummel fires 4 goliath shots every 3 minutes without the need for all that cloaking and luring crap attached to it. Just by having the hummel survive for 2 barages you easily made up it's cost in goliaths. But that doesn't matter.

Why?

Because the goliath is ridiculously pop-efficient. 4 popcap to have a far more efficient "hummel barrage" than the hummel can deliver at 10 popcap? Yeah sure - price becomes a near non-issue at that point. You get a 1 (or 2, in case of tanks) popcap counter to anything that the enemy can field - and the least he can field is 3 popcap in the form of an HMG. That gives you an enormous advantage in what you can bring alongside the goliath.

Want to roll over the enemy with vehicles and tanks? Sure, bring them on and then bring out 5 popcap worth of goliaths to take out 5 ATGs - while only paying 1/5th of that price in terms of popcap. Sure, some may fail - but so might any other of the ATG counters you bring - and the chances of the goliath and the other counters failing are probably comparable.

What does this mean? This means I would not support a price increase for the goliath. 90 munitions is a lot of resources and there is no point in pushing it up. Just raise the popcap to the next lowest thing - the jeep or HMG squad. Surely it provides enough field presence to be comparable to those things. Why fuck around with the resource cost when it's obviously the enormous field presence that is the issue?

[RikiRude]

I can get behind of more pop cap or a price increase, or a combination of both, bring it to 2 pop and 110mu or something.

Also puddin, satchel charge on grenade ability? I think you just made that up.

Comparing pershing HE round to a goliath is just lol. I've seen my pershing fire 4 HE rounds at units and only managed to kill one, it's incredibly inconsistent, I always find myself just using the normal shot unless I'm behind of a building.

[Smokaz]

I like this term: Goli. A child molesting type of warfare.

[Shabtajus]

Ok enough about goliaths, its jusr pure rage because nikomas, terrapin and riki was so happy before a game when on my side jumped 2 new guys and we managed win this stomp, continue of ingame rage went to forums. pls lock this topic and leave goliath as its now.

move on

[RikiRude]

was it won through skill or goliaths please tell me? I've been playing with golis lately and I can tell you the amount of effort I have to put in drops significantly.

[terrapinsrock]

Shab, mass Goliaths takes little skill.

Its as easy as smoke, Goliath moves up, nukes ATG/ whatever target, repeat.

I don't know if it can get any easier than that.

[Heartmann]

There is nothing as booting as a mass Goliath game. Myst has already made he best point, it's not really about cos as much as it is the fact that a 1 pop unit can nullify up to 6 - 9 pop, the cost should be increased as well thou. To deterr further over usage.

It does take some skill to use so you get a kill, but not In anyway more than a difficult off map placement.

Personally I have stoped playing against Goliath spam coys, just because its just No fun, it basically sending waves of instant death and waiting for timer to go.

And I yes hicks I know that you concider my L&L to be just as lack for a better word gay. But at least the snipers have a bigger risk and cost to company composition.

For all it's worth my opinion is that it needs a change , shah and rols you seriously need to stop the gloating, it's just so tacky.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Nothing wrong with goliaths.

It's just another example of a "annoying" strategy that upsets the delicate sensibilities of how most of EiR's playerbase wants to play: with their favourite little companies, in their preferred way, on their terms.

Any time some kind of unconventional but effective (against the unprepared) tactic comes into play, we get the same posts and the same complaints:

"Oh, it's not that I can't counter it. It's just that it's way too cost effective and it's BORING. It takes no skill!"

Translation: I want to play with my nice little army mans and set up my nice lines and then have the enemy play according to the rules in my head. If his company composition requires me to have to take drastic action to be competitive in game, TO THE BALANCE FORUMS!!!!



Salient Advice: Goliath spam is easy to counter -- you just have to begin your counter process in the launcher. You're not going to get to blob or pack all your valuable support weapons the way you might like to, or repair your tanks in stupid places, but beating it WILL make you a better player.

And soon, your opponent will have to change his/her company because you've turned his goliath spam into a liability.

It's called the meta game, and you need to stop convincing yourself it's your enemy.

[Smokaz]

well wind a less fortunate player than yourself might bring up the point that goliaths by far take the 1 game suicide company to the highest level of lollercaust since you dont even gain any veterancy from it, while spam or suicide companies actually CAN gain vet on units they use by pulling them back, goliaths are just kill or waste it.  goliath dont gain vet (derp) and pio wont get vet from goliath kills.. this strategy might be more appealing to me, PERSISTANCE-wise if the pios gained vet (no double goliath at vet 5 pls)

Salient Advice: Goliath spam is easy to counter -- you just have to begin your counter process in the launcher. You're not going to get to blob or pack all your valuable support weapons the way you might like to, or repair your tanks in stupid places, but beating it WILL make you a better player.

all suicide play can be stopped, but is it becoming of the game, design-wise.. persistence is the word here.. a goliath company foregoes a large part of its munitions and manpower to manpower temps bent on destruction for hitler in 1 game

i would like to think that most players agree on that they want investment to be met by investment, take yourself for instance you want people to invest into planning and doing a proper job of building their companies.... they dont wanna adapt, they dont wanna adapt.... just like a player would want other players to actually invest their own actual "progressing" units into killing their progressed vet 5 kt

you will come around some day wind because you start seeing the big picture instead of repeating what i told you when i scolded you at bootcamp, ho ho ho


tldr

goliathspam companies break spam and persistence more than anything else i can think of, at least spam can be 30 vetted rifles at some point

[TheWindCriesMary]

I think you actually make a point for why goliath spam isn't a problem: it hurts the person who uses it to some degree. They have to sacrifice the opportunity to gain vet while taking a high risk in order to run it.

You trade off persistency advantages for an advantage in a specific game.