D_Day Amended

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[tank130]

I would go further right than it

I find this very confusing......

**incoming sarcasm**
You can only go as far right as the playable area of the map permits. If that flank is locked down, you can't jump off the map to flank it.....
If we make the beach more accessible and it gets locked down, are you going to put on some life jackets and swim that ocean....
/sarcasm

if that flank is locked down, you are going to have to go to the other flank, or find a way to break down the defenses that have it locked down

Anyway, in an open field they can find a way to sneak around.............

Could you explain in some detail just how you 'sneak' around in an open field?

[Smokaz]

Terrain only available though airdrop sounds like a good area for triangulation devices, where you sacrifice the man being able to drop more than 1 by him not moving, but it also sounds kinda ghey since axis will have to waste a para squad or something taking it out, which probably will die.

Too bad soldiers can't climb in coh - when you think about it they all but ignored height overall in coh, its really more of 2d ballistics and terrain

[Ahnungsloser]

My last game was on D-Day and the first thing I need to say: It has a fucking awesome loading screen. Everybody was laughing about it.
Other then that I have nothing to say. The gameflow was dynamic and playing on it feeled pretty intuitive. The beach is a nice flanking option.

[tank130]

Not getting much negative feed back these days...... perhaps it is good to go?

[skaffa]

Exactly the point we are trying to make. At last someone gets it.....

You can post all the map building guides and pretty pictures you want. Just because a map has all the lines and arrows of the supposed 'Holy Grail' of maps *cough*Neuville*cough does not mean it is another 'Holy Grail'.

The opposite is equally true. Your map does not need to be a stamp of Neuville, or have the exact makings and markings to be good.

Actually this map does not fit my philosophy completely.

I shall review soontm.

[Unkn0wn]

Map looks fine from a layout perspective, though I haven't seen the sector design so can't comment in-depth.

Also, skaffa's design guidelines can't be applied to bastion, abbeville, tanteville or bocage, yet all of those were incredibly popular maps in their day. (And then I'm not even talking about neunen or bergen or church and many other 2vs2 maps)

[skaffa]

Review based on OP pics:

The strong points (green x) do not have enough green cover.

The bottom left 2 green points can work together. The top left has a road between them, which creates a barrier.

Bottom left road leads directly to the edge of the map. Its more likely the left green X's will be fighting on the left blue arrow area. Which leaves no room for a flank anymore.

The right flank is too limited. The entire beach area ruins it. A flank is only possible across the beach thus easy to spot and to defend.

Too many obstacles in the backfield preventing easy movement between sides of the map.

[tank130]

Review based on OP pics:

The strong points (green x) do not have enough green cover.

The bottom left 2 green points can work together. The top left has a road between them, which creates a barrier.

Bottom left road leads directly to the edge of the map. Its more likely the left green X's will be fighting on the left blue arrow area. Which leaves no room for a flank anymore.

The right flank is too limited. The entire beach area ruins it. A flank is only possible across the beach thus easy to spot and to defend.

Too many obstacles in the backfield preventing easy movement between sides of the map.

And this is EXACTLY why assessing a map from the comfort of ones armchair is wrong.

1.) The Green 'x' were not placed in any particular order. They are not placed to represent the exact location of where the people will place their armies from a left to right position. The 'x' indicate the top to bottom 'nomandsland' area.
The top left 'x' (if used to indicate the exact location most people use) should be placed on the two houses on the opposite side of the street as they would be massing their forces behind that house.

2.) While one may 'guess' Its more likely the left green X's will be fighting on the left blue arrow area. Which leaves no room for a flank anymore. The reality is, when you actually play the map, the battle is at the church and city center, leaving the Left flank wide open to use as one.

3.) Try playing the map. The beach is NOT easy to see unless you leave scout units there - the same can be said for any flank on any map. The main battle takes place at the city or just left of  the trenches. That means you can not see anyone on the beach until they have already moved up the other side behind you.

4.) There are no more 'game breaking' obstacles in the backfield then there are in Nueville. The orchard trees are light crush. They are also spread far enough apart that ATG's and infantry move through them with no issues. Everything else is wide open....what are you on about?
 
 - the map is wider then Nueville, thus giving you more opportunity to flank - something you experience when you play the map, not assess a picture. The main battle can not be in 3 places at once...........

Using the beach is a risky/high reward tactic. To move forces through there makes you very separated from your teammates. The reward is, the enemy has no idea you are doing it unless they sacrifice units to keep an eye on it.

Anyone who has played the map will agree that your points Skaffa are unfounded and that the game play does not unfold as you have suggested.

** Hint
PE players - take a group of clown cars with a 50mm HT or marder with you early game through the beach and surprise the shit out of the enemy.

 

[aeroblade56]

Extra Hint: Drop Airborne on the beach and trenches to stop PE to that ^ while also securing the trenches.

Hint: let airborne scatter into the stupid ass ocean.

[skaffa]

My review is based on pics. As clearly stated (for a reason). Including the pic where you applied my philosophy on it as you claimed you used it. I cant help or know you didnt place them properly or randomly. Its what I based my post on as I assumed they were reliable, which they apparantly arent.

A beach flank can only come from 1 side because the rest is all rocks, making it easy to defend that little opening with for example a few mines or TT. It would be harder to block with mines or TT if the rest of the rocks were just flat ground, or if the gap was wider.

[tank130]

A beach flank can only come from 1 side because the rest is all rocks, making it easy to defend that little opening with for example a few mines or TT. It would be harder to block with mines or TT if the rest of the rocks were just flat ground, or if the gap was wider.

How is that different then the Left flank of Nueville? You can only come in from the left around the hedges. A couple of TT between the hedges or a couple between the stone wall on the left and your flank is stopped.

The right side of Nueville has more options. I agree with that. But the right side options of Nueville are equal with the left side options of D-Day.

The flanking options of these two maps are equal, just in reverse.


Why is their no pic of neuville with Skaffatology on it?
This thread:
http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=21663.0

 '2. The formula applied to Neuville:' .......but no pic

I would like to see that from your perspective if possible

[skaffa]

It was there. Apparantly its no longer on imgshack.

From what I can see from here it seems the acces point from beachside is pretty far away from the middle, in the backfields. Meaning easy to control and enough time to build TT or mine.

Its also curved inwards. It looks as if you can keep all your units close by, in the trench, and have 1 pio behind your units (at the black dotted line) building TTs.

Also on this map you know 100% they can only come from the beach gap, as you cant crush rocks. You dont have to think where you want to put those mines or TTs.

[tank130]

Same thing as the left flank of Nueville. You know they can only come in one way........

If you are keeping all you units close by in the trench, then your team mates are fighting a 3v2 in the city.......

[skaffa]

Cant crush beachrocks with heavy crush or destroy them with firepower. But you can crush everything left side of Neuville with heavy crush or use firepower.

If your direct opponent is not in front of you but in the city then you have to adapt, meaning you dont have to protect your pio building TTs or mines in the back.

Dont forget that it looks to be pretty far in the backfield making it quite easy to get something down. Only way to get to your pio is take the long way round far right side on the beach - making your teamm8s fight 3v2 in the city from what I hear - or go thru the trenches where your direct opponent can easily be waiting.

This is my opinion based on the info I have right now.

[tank130]

Cant crush beachrocks with heavy crush or destroy them with firepower. But you can crush everything left side of Neuville with heavy crush or use firepower.

If your direct opponent is not in front of you but in the city then you have to adapt, meaning you dont have to protect your pio building TTs or mines in the back.

Dont forget that it looks to be pretty far in the backfield making it quite easy to get something down. Only way to get to your pio is take the long way round far right side on the beach - making your teamm8s fight 3v2 in the city from what I hear - or go thru the trenches where your direct opponent can easily be waiting.

This is my opinion based on the info I have right now.

I think you are so close to theory crafting, it is starting to  become an insult to my intelligence and anyone else who plays the game.

I suggest you play the map, more then once, and come back with an experienced objective opinion.

Design wise, this map is all but a stamp of Nueville plus a beach. You should probably make an effort to get acquainted......

[Unkn0wn]

Map design isn't an exact science, I don't know why some people are making it out to be one here. Ultimately play-testing is the only way for one to determine whether or not it has what it takes to become a box office hit. That's not to say there's no set of 'guidelines' mappers should adhere to when building a map for EIR, but the majority of them are common sense for someone who has played EIR extensively. (Provide enough cover and shotblockers, no large areas crowded with intact buildings, large enough lanes for vehicle movement, enough keypoints to fight over in the center, etc)

[skaffa]

Theory crafting is very important in mapping and reviewing IMO.

You must realise and think about what effects your actions in WB have ingame.

If you fail to predict the possible situations that might occur ingame you are basically 'just doing something'.

[tank130]

Everything in moderation........

[skaffa]

Everything in moderation........

Implying I went too far in this topic.

Well, I disagree.

Its as simple as looking at the first pic, imagining how easy it would be to block of the beach gap and imagine how difficult it would be to stop someone from doing so.
Seems a pretty obvious thought to me.
However you needed me to explain it in detail in 3 more posts.
Dont ask for explanations if its to much for you to grap.

Also. If you decide to put yourself in the position of map lead you could atleast have the decency to inform me (PM). Instead I have to read about it on the public forums. Bad manner.

[tank130]

Implying I went too far in this topic.

Well, I disagree.

Its as simple as looking at the first pic, imagining how easy it would be to block of the beach gap and imagine how difficult it would be to stop someone from doing so.
Seems a pretty obvious thought to me.
However you needed me to explain it in detail in 3 more posts.
Dont ask for explanations if its to much for you to grap.

Myself, and the other mappers in the community want feed back from people who actually play the map. We do not want feed back from some jackass who hasn't even played the map.

We don't need feed back from people who are too lazy to play a map and think it can be accurately analyzed by a couple of haphazardly pics thrown on a forum.

I have accurately proven, in theory on these forums, that D-Day has the same flank opportunities and blocking issues as Nueville. I have also accurately proven that it fallows your coveted Skaffatology.

When you are are open enough to admit that someone else on this planet his capable of creating a map equal or superior in design to your map, then your opinions can respected.
Right now you are coming across as an arrogant know it all who has mysteriously unlocked the secrets of mapping you and only you are capable of grasping.

I went out of my way to make a point of not attacking your personally. I made a point of attacking the people who put you on a pedestal. They did that under the false pretense that you invented nueville and are a superior mapper for doing so.

You created some great maps Skaffa. One of them was handed to you 90% complete. The other..... we don't know for sure. Be humble and proud that you have a map that receives a lot of play. Judging by most of the comments made in the past few weeks, it gets played because everything else is shit.

Being the top of a pile of shit, does not make you great in my books, but each to his own.

I blamed others for putting you up as king and implying all you have to say and all you do is the word of the map god. I was belittling theses people for their misinformed beliefs.

But somehow after a lengthy holiday away from Eirr, you mysteriously reappear 2 days after your map comes into question. You pop up on the forums and start to preach Skaffatology and shooting down anything that is comparable to Nueville. You sir, have become self absorbed in the false pretense that you are somehow the best at mapping.

The rest of us, well we are just humble servants that do not deserve any recognition for our work, or for what we have achieved. It is not possible for us less than adequate people to create a map that shall appear in the same room as the great mapper god - Skaffa.

Here is the big difference between you an I Skaffa. As map lead, I went out of my way to get the other mappers noticed, I went out of my way to bring attention to their maps and to get them exposure. I subjected myself to insult and attacks by suggesting a forced play option. I did whatever I had to do to get them recognized.

You took the position, sat on your ass and self proclaimed yourself - Skaffa the map god.




TL;DR

Skaffa, stop being an arrogant ass who is feeling threatened by someone else making maps. You stamped a map and got called the map god..... get over yourself.