AVRE.

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[aeroblade56]

needs to get buffed. there have been a few games where a gren squad in yellow cover and the avre will  kill only 1 guy.

Now currently it's earlier in the war and of course things aren't at their  full potential but i expect a avre just to kill pretty much anything with a direct hit.

A stuh is way more consistent than a AVRE.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I've been trying to use it as well and it's really frustrating.


I would say I told you so and reference a few months ago when I said even the new changes (default cut of recharge and doctrinal recharge bonuses) wouldn't be enough.... but frankly at least the balance team gave it an honest effort.


But seriously, it would be great to see some clear examples of members of the balance team really making an effort to use this unit in actual in-game circumstances over the next few weeks so that they can put together a solid solution for it.

[Hicks58]

Well, there's two ways we can go about it. Make it StuH style, or keep it high powered and make sure that it annihilates what it hits whilst retaining a long(ish) recharge.

The latter keeps more towards it's original role.

[AmPM]

Well, there's two ways we can go about it. Make it StuH style, or keep it high powered and make sure that it annihilates what it hits whilst retaining a long(ish) recharge.

The latter keeps more towards it's original role.

Increase damage output, slow speed of projectile and increase the arc.

More of a mortar, easier to dodge. Death to buildings, support, and suppressed units.

[TheVolskinator]

Increase damage output, slow speed of projectile and increase the arc.

More of a mortar, easier to dodge. Death to buildings, support, and suppressed units.

typing from my phone, heartmann style. My two cents as a coder is, throw it back to its vcoh damage output and reelongate the cooldown. P.S. Being stuck at the local town meeting is fun. 2 hours to go, whoooo

[TheWindCriesMary]

typing from my phone, heartmann style. My two cents as a coder is, throw it back to its vcoh damage output and reelongate the cooldown. P.S. Being stuck at the local town meeting is fun. 2 hours to go, whoooo

This. This. This.

I argued this so hard back in the winter and it's still the right thing to do.

Put it back to it's vcoh damage for a while and if it's still an under-utilized unit you can then start tinkering with the cooldown speed as needed.

[Mysthalin]

Keep the cooldown, give it back the damage it used to have.

[Hicks58]

The problem with the vCoH damage is that it was doing piss all to suppressed/pinned units. Pretty much zero damage on the prime targets (As far as mainline inf are concerned).

Giving it back it's old damage with the new modifiers vs suppressed/pinned etc might be an option though. We'll take a look at it.

[TheWindCriesMary]

The problem with the vCoH damage is that it was doing piss all to suppressed/pinned units. Pretty much zero damage on the prime targets (As far as mainline inf are concerned).

The vCoH damage was fine ( 0.1/0.4/1). EiR nonsensically nerfed the mid-damage to .15. It was the modifiers vs suppressed infantry and the accuracy VCOH 0.5/0.75/1 to EiR 1/1/1.25 that were good changes, but when we talk about the vCoH damage we are specifically talking about the damage stat and not about its attendant modifiers which would get confusing as base the vcoh damage stat is not the same as total damage (base + modifiers)

Giving it back it's old damage with the new modifiers vs suppressed/pinned etc might be an option though. We'll take a look at it.

If you do that, you will make the hours we spent arguing for this exact change back in the winter finally mean something. Hours spent struggling against the PQ doctrine of "lets change something arbitrarily and then add on extra changes in new directions to try and fix the first arbitrary change". A shrine will be built in your name.

There will be some peace for the souls who perished in that heroic struggle.

[EliteGren]

IMHO it just needs +5 more range default. Right now it usually kills what I shoot at, only rarely will there be guys left out of cover. If you do this keep current cooldown (don't forget abot the Sturmpanzer btw, it's basically an avre and pretty shit) But I am actually in favor of giving it back it's old damage and reincreasing the cooldown. Maybe it can get a damage bonus with vet 3 like it used to, so it can kill units in cover consistently aswell

[TheWindCriesMary]

Maybe it can get a damage bonus with vet 3 like it used to, so it can kill units in cover consistently aswell

I may be completely wrong on this, but I believe the petard round damage/accuracy ignores cover. But the damage bonus would definitely be nice.

But I agree about your +5 default range idea. It used to get that at vet 3 but they removed that in EiR as well.

[nikomas]

If you think the sturmpanzer is shit then why do you want a +5 range buff? The sturmpanzer IS an avre with +5 range.

Personally, I think the sturmpanzer is awesome what with the vet 3 pair I had way back when we last had rampant reward units.

[TheWindCriesMary]

If you think the sturmpanzer is shit then why do you want a +5 range buff? The sturmpanzer IS an avre with +5 range.

I think the logic of your question is a bit off.

He can still think the sturmpanzer is shit AND wish that the AVRE (which is a sturmpanzer as you said with -5 range) had +5 range. That just means he thinks the AVRE is really shit and should be less shit.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[EliteGren]

If you think the sturmpanzer is shit then why do you want a +5 range buff? The sturmpanzer IS an avre with +5 range.

It's fine then, I just didn't know it had more range, I assumed it was just a copy of the AVRE gun. Why does it have more range than the AVRE? Or better question, why does the AVRE have less range?

[nikomas]

Because the sturmpanzer is a reward unit and it has weaker armour in the most relevant regards, it'd be weaker than the avre if the gun was the same and that would be strange for a reward unit, would it not?

For example Churchill armor is quite a bit better in taking ATG shots than stug (what the sturm has for some strange reason) is, that's likely going to be the thing they'll take the most hits from.

Edit: Actually it doesn't even get skirted stug, so handheld is actually more effective versus the sturmpanzer than it is versus the Churchill in a lot of ways, RR's would tear it to shreds in seconds (100% pen).

[EliteGren]

Reward unit is not really an argument. You have to see the other side of the spectrum aswell, if you're gonna go with that then I'll just tell you the AVRE is doctrinal and costs PP to unlock and takes up doctrine points, this is arguably a lot more stuff you have to take into consideration. You have the chance to get a Sturmpanzer with every doctrine with no doctrine and PP costs whatsoever.

See what I did there? At the very least the AVRE should have the same range as the Sturmpanzer as you pay a lot more for it than pure resources, and are limited to 1 doctrine with that one specific unlock you have to take to be able to even use the unit.

[TheWindCriesMary]

EG nailed it.

[nikomas]

We've already established that reward units in general should be more cost/combat effective if only marginally so than their base and doctrinal counterparts, but that's another discussion. I still missed your answer to my point, if the Sturm is shit how will a range buff to the AVRE help? You're arguing for a buff here that you yourself has said is still a shitty gun.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Because here's why:

The Sturmpanzer is allegedly "shit".

The Avre with it's -5 range compared to the Sturmpanzer is, according to EliteGren (and to which I'd agree), currently "even more shit" than the Sturmpanzer's level of "shit".

Therefore adding +5 range to the Avre would promote it from "even more shit" and therefore bring it to a commensurate level of "shit" as the "shit" Sturmpanzer.

It's a start and a step in the right direction. Personally I'd be much happier if the AVRE was just "shit" instead of "even more shit" because it's easier to get a unit to the "not shit at all" and, if we're really lucky, "opposite of shit" stages from the "shit" stage than it is to get it there all the way from the "even more shit" stage (requires fewer counter-shit improvements to do so).

[EliteGren]

I agree with Wind, going a bit more indepth now though because your bad reading is getting annoying atm

I still missed your answer to my point, if the Sturm is shit how will a range buff to the AVRE help? You're arguing for a buff here that you yourself has said is still a shitty gun.

Do you even read my posts? It's not shit, I said it's fine when it was brought up that it has 5 more range than the AVRE, something I was not aware of. So why are you still bringing this up, nikomas? I am going to quote myself since you seem to be incapable of looking through the posts yourself

It's fine then

Next point:

You're arguing for a buff here that you yourself has said is still a shitty gun.

 I never said the Sturmpanzer gun is shit, once again you are incapable of reading properly and invent imaginary things for reasons unknown to me, I said the unit itself is shit because I assumed it had the range the AVRE has right now (while that, after a bit more thinking, may not even be true, it doesn't even have a freaking turret). The gun is ok, I was complaining that it had to get so close to use it, just like the AVRE, which was the reason I called it shit, not knowing it actually had more range.