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[Mysthalin]

Two of those are T4 boosts so at "worst" the StuG would only face a 1/6th chance of meeting a T4-pen-buffed  company, with most of the units affected already having very excellent pen rates as it stands. And that's ignoring the very potent double T3 builds that could be used by the doctrines.

In the case of RCA cromwells - the 20% boost is... really not something you should care about much, if at all. It will not be a very significant change. In case of AB RRs with 20% more pen - sure. But that's pretty much the only meaningful buff of the lot.

10 Goliaths > 1 STuG, 2 Goliaths.

Yeah? You wouldn't mind taking on 2 quads with that then, right?

[nikomas]

Actually, the 20% doesn't matter at all, RR's 100% the stug by default iirc

Not really sure why to be honest, not when the zook only gets a 33%

[Hicks58]

100% Non-skirted, 75% Skirted. Brings up Skirted pen chance to 90%.

[nikomas]

Fair enuff, RR's still kick it in the nuts

I remember that number from the sturmpanzer... the sturmpz should probably get skirted stug at the very least, not just standard stug imho.

[AmPM]

I used them last night actually. STuH's are so much better BTW.

Sure if 2 units sit in front of each other and pound away the STuG does alright. Next time we play please park your tanks in front of it. If you are using a turreted tank you can come into range, shoot, and scoot away nicely. STuG, not as much. Can't really use buildings/hedges as cover offensively either.

Saying that it and a Sherman 76mm are even in a stand up fight is silly. That's like saying an M18 will lose to a Tiger in a stand up fight...well no shit, it's not using it's range, turret rotation or speed.

STuG should be used behind other units...with its mighty range? Not really valid. Similar to saying the P4 or Sherman should be used behind other units. Or is this so that infantry stop all those AT weapons from hitting it. If you have to kill the enemy AT for it to be effective a Puma could do the same job. Before you jump on this, YES you should try and avoid AT with any armored unit. Some can ignore it more or less to different levels, or can quickly and easily flank/bypass.

The STuG is a pain to micro compared to any other armored vehicle in the game, with less forgiving range, low HP, and armor that doesn't do much to defend it from it's primary opposition (ATG's, TD's). At least PE vehicles with similar issues have range on their side.

Tell me which point above is wrong. Just because you look at stats instead of actual use doesn't make it good.

Myst, you can Volks spam fine, but its the Volks and keep it moving that win the game, not the STuG. You could do the same with any other armored unit or even a HT if it had that buff.

If you read my posts prior to Hicks writing a short story about them, you would note the only change we all agreed was needed was a range increase and fuel bump. Which would allow them to compensate for it's other inherent weaknesses.

Myst, I wouldn't chase 2 Quads with 1 StuG anyway, that just asking to get ganked. And if I recall they have longer range so can continue to harrass your infantry anyway.

Also

Two of those are T4 boosts so at "worst" the StuG would only face a 1/6th chance of meeting a T4-pen-buffed  company, with most of the units affected already having very excellent pen rates as it stands

, you note the problem of the large amount of units with excellent pen rates? It's not that the STuG is inherently bad, it's that it got left behind in the evolution of a mod where field presence is more important than spammability. In some cases you reach a happy medium (Scoped MP44 Volks, AB, etc), in some cases not.

Especially when the name of the game is persistency and trying to win AND vet up units.

Please note, I don't think anyone is asking for a 600HP STuG with a Panther cannon that costs 160 fuel. What I think is reasonable is bumping it's main gun to 45 and it's cost to 190 or so, bringing into line with the M10. With Skirts and MG it would be 300ish MP, 220Fu, and 80ish MU with repairs or so (no launcher, someone check). It would perform the role of mobile AT for the Axis, similar to the M10 (especially since we lost our moving cloak PaK years ago...and yes, it broke EIRR to have it in originally).

[PonySlaystation]

Weak armour: Against Hellcats, Fireflies and Pershings? I can see your point. Against Shermans, Cromwells and LV's? I think not. You're looking at 0.346 penetration for Shermans, and similar or lower for the Cromwell and most brands of LV. 76mm Upgun jumps it up to 0.646, but with luck on your side it's still a winnable fight. It's also impressive vs Bazookas even without skirts having a respectable 0.33 chance to be penetrated, or 0.25 chance with them (As well as the significant 0.75 damage buff that skirts give vs Bazookas). It's a very powerful tool for curbing Ranger spammers. AB require other tools though.

The Cromwell cannot penetrate any tank and why are you taking un-upgunned shermans into account? It's like you intentionally leave out information to prove your point.

Low damage: lol. 87.5 damage as a base, which is medium tank damage for 150/175 FU. But that's not the selling point. The selling point is a staggering 1.5 damage modifier vs Sherman armour making it do 131.25 damage, which is a palty 6.5 points from being TIGER damage. It also has a 1.25 damage mod vs M10 armour, making it do a very respectable 109.375 damage, which is 15 points from being Firefly damage. It has the same 1.25 damage vs Greyhound armour. To sum this up, 5 rounds to bag a Sherman, 5 rounds to bag a M18, 4 rounds to bag a M10, 3 rounds to bag a Greyhound. Through damage alone, the StuG is a major pain in the ass for US.

Now take into account penetration rates of 0.75 vs Shermans, and guaranteed penetration against anything lower including Cromwells and it's a very solid weapon. It even has 0.55 penetration vs Pershing armour (Though no damage mods, so it'd be 87.5 damage) which for a 150/175 FU unit is very potent.

The M10 have similar damage and penetration modifiers, except they apply to all tanks, not just the panzer IV, one of it's main targets.


The Stug is a unit with many weaknesses, especially the lack of turret and range. It could use a minor buff like the range increase or higher accuracy when rotating. The argument it's cheap and therefor must suck isn't a very good one, I'd rather pay a little more for it to fill the role of a specialized TD.

[Mysthalin]

The Cromwell cannot penetrate any tank and why are you taking un-upgunned shermans into account? It's like you intentionally leave out information to prove your point.

He gave literally all the relevant information and you're accusing him of leaving information out? What?

The M10 have similar damage and penetration modifiers, except they apply to all tanks, not just the panzer IV, one of it's main targets.

The M10 obviously has a better gun. It also boasts much poorer armour and a higher fuel cost. Why are you assuming someone is saying the StuG = M10? Obviously it isn't - the point is that calling it useless is folly at best.

Sure if 2 units sit in front of each other and pound away the STuG does alright. Next time we play please park your tanks in front of it. If you are using a turreted tank you can come into range, shoot, and scoot away nicely. STuG, not as much. Can't really use buildings/hedges as cover offensively either.

Yes, you can do precisely that if you can micro at all. I do it, speedy does it, many other players who are at least half-way competent with their tanks can do these things no problem. There should be no reason for your StuG NOT to be able to at least hold its own in a tank-to-tank firefight, and even less reason for you not to have support superiority for the StuG.

Myst, you can Volks spam fine, but its the Volks and keep it moving that win the game, not the STuG. You could do the same with any other armored unit or even a HT if it had that buff.

I don't even use Keep it Moving. I much prefer defensive volks to any other volks anyway. Woot omniscience and grenades. Not that the volksgrenadiers would be that relevant in the first place - but if we're bringing them in - it's the fact the StuG is so pop-efficient that allows the overwhelming volks squads to hit the field in the first place. The StuG's pop-efficiency is undeniable.

Myst, I wouldn't chase 2 Quads with 1 StuG anyway, that just asking to get ganked. And if I recall they have longer range so can continue to harrass your infantry anyway.

You asked for a way to utilise the 2 extra popcap over an M10. I gave you one. Stop being 'murrican about it.

It's not that the STuG is inherently bad, it's that it got left behind in the evolution of a mod where field presence is more important than spammability.

Huh? I'd always go for moar spam over hoard vet, especially in this meta-game. And, at 8 popcap - the StuG can definitely boast some impressive field presence for the popcap cost.


Yet again, sure - the StuG could use a range increase to become standardised. Why do you want to increase it's fuel cost together with that? Don't really think it costing the same as an M10 would be warranted even with equal range.

[AmPM]

Neither do I, but I would take it and it would make many players feel better if it got increased in price to go with it.

People hate when the opposition gets a buff without a price change.

[PonySlaystation]

He gave literally all the relevant information and you're accusing him of leaving information out? What?

Again, the cromwell can't penetrate any tank, using it for a specific comparison yields nothing nor does comparing the unupgunned sherman since up-gun is the most essential upgrade in the game, no one every uses a sherman without the up-gun, it might as well not be an upgrade being that it's essential, obligatory, not optional, required and a must have.

[AmPM]

Again, the cromwell can't penetrate any tank, using it for a specific comparison yields nothing nor does comparing the unupgunned sherman since up-gun is the most essential upgrade in the game, no one every uses a sherman without the up-gun, it might as well not be an upgrade being that it's essential, obligatory, not optional, required and a must have.

Shhh....we like to pretend we have options.

[Hicks58]

The StuG having a +5 range increase I can work with, it may not even need a FU increase at all.

However, what really riles me up is people making these bullshit arguments that somehow the StuG is a bad unit, that it's at some kind of major disadvantage. It REALLY pisses me off when said people spew out totally false "Facts" in defence of their misguided beliefs. Especially when there are potentially new people hovering around the forums who'll see these bullshit posts and think they have merit because the person spewing it has been around a while.

Bullshit like this for example:

Again, the cromwell can't penetrate any tank, using it for a specific comparison yields nothing nor does comparing the unupgunned sherman since up-gun is the most essential upgrade in the game, no one every uses a sherman without the up-gun, it might as well not be an upgrade being that it's essential, obligatory, not optional, required and a must have.

Cromwell has 54% chance to get through PzIV armour, by definition that's a tank. A tank it has a respectable chance to get through. It has 90% chance to get through Ostwind armour, which also happens to be a tank. Hooray for more bullshit being spouted.

Sherman upgun is essential? Sherman upgun is ONLY essential when going up against dedicated PzIV/StuG companies. Any heavy armour or light armour focused companies won't give a shit about upgun. Do I have to bring out another page's worth of statistics to back that one up or are you finally going to get the point?

Either way, I've been using StuG's recently, they work. I still find suppress+StuG powah slide to be one of the most hilarious things in the game to watch at work.

[AmPM]

The StuG having a +5 range increase I can work with, it may not even need a FU increase at all.

However, what really riles me up is people making these bullshit arguments that somehow the StuG is a bad unit, that it's at some kind of major disadvantage. It REALLY pisses me off when said people spew out totally false "Facts" in defence of their misguided beliefs. Especially when there are potentially new people hovering around the forums who'll see these bullshit posts and think they have merit because the person spewing it has been around a while.

Bullshit like this for example:

Cromwell has 54% chance to get through PzIV armour, by definition that's a tank. A tank it has a respectable chance to get through. It has 90% chance to get through Ostwind armour, which also happens to be a tank. Hooray for more bullshit being spouted.

Sherman upgun is essential? Sherman upgun is ONLY essential when going up against dedicated PzIV/StuG companies. Any heavy armour or light armour focused companies won't give a shit about upgun. Do I have to bring out another page's worth of statistics to back that one up or are you finally going to get the point?

Either way, I've been using StuG's recently, they work. I still find suppress+StuG powah slide to be one of the most hilarious things in the game to watch at work.

I think you missed the point of my response to your original giant post. It was that for every strength you were stating about the STuG it had a weakness, you were making it out to be a powerful unit in it's own right.

I don't think I have seen a 75mm Sherman in a very very long time...

[PonySlaystation]

I didn't say the Stug is useless, it's worse than it's counterpart tank destroyers by having lower range and no turret, which means lower accuracy because it has to rotate in combat.

[Hicks58]

They'd be pretty viable in the current environment due to the lack of heavies, but they were extinct last reset due to late war making the 75mm pretty much redundant with all the high powered unlocks and heavy armour running around. Ran one in my core yesterday and it did pretty well, until the inevitable Panther got called in.

The StuG IS a powerful unit in it's own right. Most people's perspective of it being not worth it's price is mostly down to people being terrible with it. Kinda like how not many people are actually any good with Marders, but the few who are can shit on any armour-centric company's day.

[Mysthalin]

Again, the cromwell can't penetrate any tank, using it for a specific comparison yields nothing nor does comparing the unupgunned sherman since up-gun is the most essential upgrade in the game, no one every uses a sherman without the up-gun, it might as well not be an upgrade being that it's essential, obligatory, not optional, required and a must have.

You really going to tell me any upgrade in the game is more obligatory than stag/greyhound top MG?

[CrazyWR]

I think you missed the point of my response to your original giant post. It was that for every strength you were stating about the STuG it had a weakness, you were making it out to be a powerful unit in it's own right.

I don't think I have seen a 75mm Sherman in a very very long time...

I can't say I've upgunned a sherman in like a full year...

[aeroblade56]

i only up gun if i HVAP(Rarely)

or i have left over fuel, but most of the time i use remaining fuel for jeeps and such.

[NightRain]

The only true annoying thing about stug is its decel. It takes quite a time before the tank slides to a halt and starts to reverse. Guaranteed 2 atg hits.


I might give it a shot to try out T4 with a StuG volkssturm company, it might be effective really. StuGs effectiveness comes out when its assault role is utilized. What your panzerfausts can't hit, the stug most certainly can. Blitzkrieg gives the best toys for a StuG while Defencive gives the best toys for the Volksgrenadiers. A Defencive Volkssturm accompanied with a Blitzkrieg T4 StuG company is a force to be reconned with.

What StuG is mainly good for is its Anti tank role. It gives you that guaranteed long range AT support when assaulting. Yes StuG has no turret, that is why it must be accompanied by infantry at all times. Infantry is what covers its sides. No one likes to lose HP to fausts when they lolcharge a StuG with a M10.

I'm all up for 45 Range increase, makes StuGs role more valid and potential while increasing its threat level quite a significant ammount.

Also the best part: StuG is a awsome unit in its pop and cost effectiveness.

[tankmaster23]

 StuG is ok right now had At but better at AI I like to use it together with Fausts and if Iam Blitz with a StuH or another StuG...

 Seems has of late I have been the only one utilizing the StuG nice to see it being discussed...

 I think turret-less tanks need nice range or ambush to make up for not having a turret.

 Rocksitter

[XIIcorps]

Pre wipe I had a blitz coy using exclusively stugs/stuhs.

It was hit and miss depending n wether I faced inf coys or armor coys