AVRE

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[TheWindCriesMary]

Wind - 50% to 90% of your posts are long winded bullshit and truly irrelevant to the Posted topic.

Tank stop being a lying fool.

Check my post history and stop making up bullshit. The vast majority of my posts are 3 sentences or less and are not off topic so take your imaginary 50-90% bullshit and shove it up your ass.

You can ban me from whatever forum you want or the game even, but you're not going to sit there and lie to my face about my own post history that anyone with eyes and who isn't braindead can see.

 

[tank130]

That's one down, any other takers?

[TheWindCriesMary]

This is your last warning - if you can not post in concise, to the point posts, you will be removed from the balance forum. Your balance knowledge is an asset, but your approach is unacceptable.

Also we're not in the balance forum FYI.

Awareness fail.

[pqumsieh]

Watched the video, not the finest shooting around but there might be some things we can do to improve on the unit.

-off topic

Regarding the on going trash talk and insults being passed amongst everyone, seriously not necessary to have a civil discussion. Wind you typically call out people who act that way and cite a bunch of fancy debate terms to demonstrate how poor taste it is. Maybe practice what you preach and preach what you practice?

Poor Tigs isn't the only one who offers incorrect information. I remember your first few posts last year on this matter. You clearly didn't understand the changes and I had to correct you; which you later accepted an conceded your mistake. My point, everyone is bound to make mistakes, there is no need to harass and insult them about it.

- on topic

@Hicks; there are a few bugs with the AVRE that might help resolve this problem. Go through the target table and adjust some of the damage modifiers to be at or near 1. The Pak for example had a lower damage modifier causing it to break the intitial expectations of the unit. If I recall correctly its at 0.6.

I would also take a look at the AOE distance; the visual for the explosion doesn't seem to be lining up with the data which is likely causing a perception issue. There are range distance splats in the world builder you can use to measure weapon splash or you can try to eye ball it.

Addressing the edge cases and this perception issue might be all the unit needs.

[TheWindCriesMary]

You clearly didn't understand the changes and I had to correct you; which you later accepted an conceded your mistake.

Yeah... just no.

Over the course of two threads nearly a dozen people pointed out why you were completely wrong about the changes to the AVRE (ie. that they were a big mistake that harmed the AVRE needlessly). You even made the disastrous "design principles" argument that has since become the laughing stock meme of the community. Finally I was proven right. The half dozen people who agreed were proven right. Even now the BT Lead has confirmed the exact same conclusion we came to despite your objections.

 In your defence of the 4-5 things you were proven wrong on, there was one where you were right to which I immediately gave you credit: the suppression change was not a nerf. A small mistake and fortunately not one which altered, in the slightest, the overall conclusion that everyone nevertheless reached.

You lead a balance team to change a unit you didn't understand and you made lazy, careless and uninformed changes to it. In doing so you damaged a unit and effectively removed it from the mod through incompetence for over 6 months. The least courtesy you could have now is to stop interfering with a mod you barely play and let the people who actually do try to fix your mess.

[Hicks58]

- on topic

@Hicks; there are a few bugs with the AVRE that might help resolve this problem. Go through the target table and adjust some of the damage modifiers to be at or near 1. The Pak for example had a lower damage modifier causing it to break the intitial expectations of the unit. If I recall correctly its at 0.6.

I would also take a look at the AOE distance; the visual for the explosion doesn't seem to be lining up with the data which is likely causing a perception issue. There are range distance splats in the world builder you can use to measure weapon splash or you can try to eye ball it.

Addressing the edge cases and this perception issue might be all the unit needs.

Alright, what I'll do first is put the marked differences between the original AVRE and the current EiRR AVRE first, and we'll work from there:

Identical stats:

- Base accuracy
- AoE range (Units affect the same area at same intervals being 2 short, 5 medium, 8 long, 10 distant)
- Aim time, fire time, wind up (All of it adds up to 2.6 seconds of aiming/firing time, up to the round being released)
- Base damage, penetration, suppression (Damage being 500, penetration is full across the board)
- Target tables

Differences:

- vCoH has 0.4 medium range splash damage vs EiRR 0.15, meaning damage is 500, 200, 50, 50 for Short, medium, long and distant respectively vs 500, 75, 50, 50 for EiRR
- vCoH has horrific modifiers vs trench cover (0.1 damage, 0.15 acc) whereas EiRR has full acc/damage vs trench like all other cover (Pretty sure this was done when Trenches were made reasonable in EiRR though)
- vCoH has 35 max range vs EiRR 40 max range
- vCoH has 0.5 damage/acc vs pinned targets (Good chance to miss them altogether) where EiRR has full damage/acc vs pinned targets. Damage/acc is full vs suppressed targets on both weapons

Target table issues:

- 0.5 Damage vs ATG armour, meaning 250 damage is dealt to the weapon itself which is insufficient to make a kill at full health on the weapon. Same applies to 88's, but that's much less of an issue as the crew is still liable to go splat instantly due to how closed in it is

Essentially, the EiRR AVRE loses any true killing capacity beyond 2 CoH units but gains the ability to consistently kill pinned units. The vCoH AVRE still does infantry-lethal damage up to 5 CoH units, which is why any targetted support weapon is made chunky on contact.

Looking at the statistics, the AVRE isn't doing it's designated role in EiRR, and that's the make support weapons GTFO. Being able to kill pinned infantry is a nice perk, but it's not the unit's primary role.

I'd argue that allowing the AVRE to instantly destroy ATG's/Paks with it's first round would actually be bad. You'd be able to AT-attrition a player in a very short amount of time as a lot of companies rely on ATG recovery to keep up AT assets long into the game. It's one thing being able to get rid of lurking weapons after a fight is done with, but being able to destroy the weapon outright from under their feet is going to raise some serious eyebrows. Not even artillery can do that unless it gets multiple direct hits (Read: Lucky)

My suggestion would be to increase the mid range damage multiplier to 0.2 and leave it at that. I'd be more than happy to wait 105 seconds on a weapon I KNOW is going to decrew a weapon on a direct hit. The argument of being able to instantly kill units in a persistency environment?... Two things. First, Goliath. Second, you can either risk taking the round or pull your unit off, the aim time will give you enough reaction time to make the choice.

[TheWindCriesMary]

My suggestion would be to increase the mid range damage multiplier to 0.2 and leave it at that.

Exactly this. Of the few differences between vCOH and EiR's avre's this is the only one that really seems problematic. Just giving it its proper damage back at mid range (the change made zero sense) would be a fantastic starting point. It may fix the unit entirely and make it viable for players to use or it may still need improving afterward, but either way it's a solid beginning on the road to redemption for this poor unit.

[pqumsieh]

Still check the visuals and make sure they match up with the data. If the visuals give you the impression that the weapon is hitting at a distance of 10 but in fact its only hitting a distance of 6 then there is definitively going to be an issue with perception.

I'm still leaning towards fixing the target table rather than modifying the medium splash damage. Its very difficult to dodge this ability once you touch the medium splash. We didn't originally adjust the medium splash after modifying the suppression values, that change came after play testing the unit internally and determining that it was too difficult to dodge at that point. Although the change might seem dramatic going from 0.4 to 0.15, in fact is 0.4 was overkill in most situations and the major differences in gameplay occur in between 0.15 and 0.16.

I guess it depends on what the expectation is. If the other player sees the AVRE coming and moves away should they take massive losses? If yes, then change the medium splash. I know in the past we had abilities that were extremely difficult to avoid and the community didn't seem to like that. My impression was that players didn't like 'I Win' abilities and preferred skill shots.

@Wind; so you were wrong about the suppression changes not being a nerf (you were also wrong about it being in a patch 'a few weeks ago'); so why do you get to be wrong but Tigs doesn't? Like I said, don't call out others for providing incorrect information when you yourself do it as well. Also don't forget my point about insulting others in order to win an argument or practicing what you preach; they are still very relevant.

[TheWindCriesMary]

 so why do you get to be wrong but Tigs doesn't? Like I said, don't call out others for providing incorrect information when you yourself do it as well.

If you read the post I chastized Tig for continuously posting false information. Not once, Not twice. Not even three times. But in a really frustrating frequency. She even said it was about 50/50.

Everyone makes mistakes. But if you're finding that 50% of what you say is fact is dead wrong and you keep posting in every thread regardless it's not the least bit unintuitive to suggest you start to fact check a bit more.

In about 15 points made about the AVRE which were all proven to be right, 2 of the absolute most minor ones were wrong (the timing of the patch had nothing to do with the legitimacy of an argument saying it was a bad patch).

 

Also don't forget my point about insulting others in order to win an argument or practicing what you preach; they are still very relevant.

This coming from the guy who, in a ventrillo chat with 3 other people present, started flying off the handle with insults and swear words because 3 people disagreed with him calmly and rationally. The same guy who then frothed at the mouth and rage quit the vent channel when they reiterated, without swearing why he was wrong. The irony of this stance is rich.

[Mysthalin]

With a fire-time of 2.6 seconds (ignoring shell travel time) infantry should really be able to dodge the incoming AVRE lethal-damage area with their speed of 3, and the medium splash of 5. In fact, they should be able to leave the area to the point of only being hit by distant, let alone long-range splash, assuming the AVRE user somehow managed to fire precisely at the intended target with 0 offset and the shell hit instantly.

[pqumsieh]

Keep in mind reaction behavior and squad plans Myst. Those considerations muck it up a bit and result in slightly higher delay than what we would expect on paper.

@Wind; Keep in mind I don't preach the things you do. I don't preach to others how its a fallacy to invoke emotion within an argument or insult others to try and discredit their character. So in that respect, my behavior is irrelevant to my point because it is you who preaches those points not I.

[deadbolt]

Wind - 50% to 90% of your posts are long winded bullshit and truly irrelevant to the Posted topic. These walls of text and sarcasm have done more to damage a balance thread then most of Deadbolts pics.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Deadbolt wins the thread lol

With a fire-time of 2.6 seconds (ignoring shell travel time) infantry should really be able to dodge the incoming AVRE lethal-damage area with their speed of 3, and the medium splash of 5. In fact, they should be able to leave the area to the point of only being hit by distant, let alone long-range splash, assuming the AVRE user somehow managed to fire precisely at the intended target with 0 offset and the shell hit instantly.

I agree that they should be able to dodge the damage area. I think the problem is though that even in instances where they clearly did not move out of the area in time they're still not taking an appropriate amount of damage all too often.

@Wind; Keep in mind I don't preach the things you do. I don't preach to others how its a fallacy to invoke emotion within an argument or insult others to try and discredit their character.

It's not a fallacy to invoke emotion in an argument. You've essentially decided out of thin air and based on no evidence (it's not surprising that you do the same thing in your approach to balance) that I somehow argued "invoking emotion within an argument" is a fallacy.

Insulting people based on something that has no actual relevance to the argument at hand, however, is a fallacy. Eg. "Alpha you are wrong about the AVRE because you are a snake who cannot be trusted" is ad hominem. But saying "Alpha since you are wrong, by your own admission, with about 50% of the things you say about COH units/stats, you should do us all a favour and consult Myst or Hicks and stop disrupting discussions" is not just mindlessly insulting someone.

It's a really obvious difference so either learn it or don't, but if you choose the latter do me a favour and stop trying to bring accusations you haven't thought through even half decently to my door.

[tank130]

PQ and Wind, take you argument to PM's please.

[TheWindCriesMary]

PQ and Wind, take you argument to PM's please.

Fair enough, will do

[Mysthalin]

Keep in mind reaction behavior and squad plans Myst. Those considerations muck it up a bit and result in slightly higher delay than what we would expect on paper.

The average human reaction time is about 150-300ms, latency in ping can add another 100-250ms to when orders actually get put through.

That's 0.25-0.55 seconds "lost" on average. Probably well compensated by the time it takes the shell to travel (which is, normally, much (in relative terms) longer). Squad spread and "strategic" aim go into the purview of skill and luck, a completely stochastic near gaussian white-noise variable - and something all unit capabilities are subject to without question. The point of my post was to show that there is no reason other than poor skill, little attention, bad luck, the unit being a support weapon or suppression/pinning of the target for the unit to not leave the fatal damage area (should it be changed to 5).

Much like a greyhound should be killed by a marder if it decides to quietly stand there at 60 range as the marder pounds it.

[pqumsieh]

By reaction behavior I meant the reaction behavior of the squad. Its an actual value. For example, when a howitzer shell hits the ground the squad tries to move out of the way. This often causes players to think their squads are unresponsive for example since it ignores other commands or results in slight delays.

Basically, the COH engine isn't perfect in the squads don't always respond 100% to orders. I'm not saying we can't tighter things up so we give the player just enough time to react, I'm just saying its something we have to keep in mind.

[Mysthalin]

By reaction behavior I meant the reaction behavior of the squad. Its an actual value. For example, when a howitzer shell hits the ground the squad tries to move out of the way. This often causes players to think their squads are unresponsive for example since it ignores other commands or results in slight delays.

Only relevant to other explosives landing near or around the squad at approximately the time the AVRE does. Frankly, if there's another minimum of 7 popcap (25 pdr) firing at a single squad of units with relative accuracy (or a blob, but that's the receiving person's fault for not spreading out earlier) then the squad SHOULD be either retreating or dying.

[pqumsieh]

Almost all weapons trigger reaction behavior unless we changed it in EIR. I just used a howitzer as an example as it triggers one of the strongest reactions due to the higher value in that department.

[XIIcorps]

My 2 cents.

With both axis factions having ample scout units, and the avre being slow as shit rolling uphill, how can you not see/hear it coming and adjust accordingly.

It should have the med rang nerf removed and be how it was 8 months or so ago