0.7.9.Z.8 Patch Notes

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[TheWindCriesMary]

Tank, for the love of god, read the post before responding to your own scarecrow.

No one is telling you to analyse the shit out of something and micro scrutinise every detail.  That's more work than is necessary.

What you're being told in plain English is that you and your team are making more work for yourselves, harming the mod and leading to greater abuses by double' triple or sometimes quadruple buffing and nerfings things or single nerfing\buffing by irresponsible amounts instead of doing small changes. The result is that every patch is three steps forward and two steps back. The result of this bad approach is the endless need to revise and evaluate because previous overreactions have made it neccessary instead of taking small steps over the course of several patches.

No unit or doc should ever get to the point where they need 5 nerfs in a single patch. The only reason that would ever be necessary is as the result of careless process both in making it that good to begin with and in figuring out how to fix it.

What you guys need to do is chill the hell out when you identify a change that needs to be made. I know you think this means analysing it to death but that's nonsense. It means instead saving time on the inevitable imbalance you'll create, have to argue over, try another solution for and code in the next time. How do you save that time? MAKE SMALL CHANGES. They are easier to agree on, easier to come up with, easier to implement and far less likely to break shit.

4 man kch too powerful? No prob. Pick ONE small change  and implement it in the next patch. Because its small it won't break the unit or cause outrage on any serious scale. It will be fast and easy. After its done, if it isn't enough its easy to add another small change in the next patch. At worst it will be slightly more balanced.

Right now you guys are trying to balance an ounce scale with elephants and its wasting so much of your time and resources - things that are valuable to you and the mod. This is a problem because its so damn avoidable.

Balance often but balance small. You'll save countless hours down the road, eventually prevent the creation of exploitable units AND most importantly: will do no harm.

Its basic process 101 and it will change this mod for the better by an infinite amount.

[Shabtajus]

Wind promised to make a map for eirr.  1.5 year passed and still no map but he complains about rate of patch release


//wrists  Wind

[tank130]

Wall of text  - nothing but insults to the team and long winded rhetoric

Here's the problem Wind, your opinion means absolutely nothing to us because of your attitude and presentation. So it gets ignored.

Truth be told, we are going to do it the way we want and if you don't like, we really don't give a shit - no really Wind, we really don't give a shit about your opinion.

We actually care very much about the opinions of some people here, but your is defiantly not one of them to be totally honest.

Oh, and before you put up another wall of text ranting about the community is all going to leave because of it, or how everyone hates me and they are all going to leave because it........ We just don't care Wind. That simple, we just don't give a shit about what you have to say.

LOL

[Shabtajus]

Here's the problem Wind, your opinion means absolutely nothing to us because of your attitude and presentation. So it gets ignored.



We actually care very much about the opinions of some people here,

yea tank ban him  ban him ban him, he has nothing to say just ban him ban
yea wind u niggah nobody cares

how about 1v1, tank vs wind, let the game talk, and if wind will win u can ban him to make him never tell true who won and u tank coulda be like '' aww dat windlette is so lame i just beated shit out of his black biatch ass

[chefarzt]

That simple, we just don't give a shit about what you have to say.

LOL

Hate to admit it, but Tank just earned 1 bonus point.

[TheWindCriesMary]

There is literally no insult in that post. Youre not a victim here and insulting you (or the team, but especially you) could not be less of a priority.


This also isnt about you listening to me. Its about how you have a chance to save yourselves tons of time, work and hassle by balancing in small increments. Its smarter. Its easier. It makes sense for your own good and everyone else's too. It frees up the valuable time you have to spend endlessly adjusting and readjusting units to make the big changes to more important mod features you probably want to do.

It makes sense regardless of who suggested it. Hell I don't even care if starting tomorrow you say it was your idea. Progress is progress.

[chefarzt]

I think its about you just bickering around, writing pamphlets that hardly fit on an 21 inch screen, and literaly doing nothin else.

[Hicks58]

Aaaand hows about we all put the handbags away, hmm?

You two have let your discussion slip into an argument, so let me help clear things up a little.

The bulk of this patch's RGD content was my brain-child. This includes the RCA changes.

Was I heavy handed? Yes I was. I will not deny it. The simultaneous kick to lit-up, the rifle grenades and the scoped enfields was all my doing and very intentional.

But let me explain why.

Some of these issues were mistakes in the first place. The rifle grenade was not supposed to be at 40 range, and the scoped enfield was not supposed to be at 20 damage. These had to be reverted as it was an oversight, and you could clearly see what my oversight had done to the meta-game.

The change to lit-up was done as it's unique in it's ability to utterly screw over an entire area. The closest thing to lit-up is mark target, which applies to a single target only. It's now a support ability for extended spotting and anti-cloak duty (Lit-up detects cloak in it's radius, and it's increased sight range will augment this as well as it's reduced cost).

The rest of the patch is pretty much rank and file stuff which as far as I can see, most people don't have a problem with - But I won't shy away from what has been done with RCA.

If you'd like to voice your concerns, voice them at the correct person, and now with a little context.

[Shabtajus]

 wind light the torch time to burn hicks

[TheWindCriesMary]

I think the decisions hicks had to make were the exact result of the problem. He did what he had to because the system forced the hand. Massive bulk changes require bulk revisions and adjustments which beget more future changes.

Its turtles turtles turtles all the way down.

A better process would save him time, make balancing way easier and drastically reduce mod impact. The first victim of bad process is the time and resources and sanity of the team.

[Shabtajus]

hicks light the torch time to burn wind

[Hicks58]

I think the decisions hicks had to make were the exact result of the problem. He did what he had to because the system forced the hand. Massive bulk changes require bulk revisions and adjustments which beget more future changes.

Its turtles turtles turtles all the way down.

A better process would save him time, make balancing way easier and drastically reduce mod impact. The first victim of bad process is the time and resources and sanity of the team.

With the exception of those errors that needed correcting, the previous patch and this patch have been relatively progressive, rather than massive in scale. The only other notable exception would be what was done with PzGrens - But lets face it, they needed some drastic work in the current environment (No doctrines for a little while will come to tell if it was the correct decision overall though).

I get what you're saying Wind, I do.

But christ man, calm down lol.

[TheWindCriesMary]

These days you've got super buffed units like heat p4s, 4 man kch, 50mm HTS (by price) nebels and so forth running around that got over buffed to extreme levels in the past and still haven't been addressed. And yet of all these units that are spammed in almost every game by dozens of players, you guys picked tjust one thing to really seriously address... Despite the fact that it was considerably less widespread. RCA definitely needed some adjusting, along with a great deal of things. Going all out on one and not on anything else is a systemic problem. Nothing benefits by multiple nerfs, but the problem gets exacerbated when they're unevenly considered.


The pgren change was also another example of the exact wrong way to solve a problem that screamed for a measured solution. Instead of making small, testable changes the attempt was to change a bunch of things at once to try and solve the problem in one go. Now balancing them is going to take more time because its impossible to tell which changes made them too strong.

Wed be closer to having balanced pgrens with fewer lol moments along the way if they'd been taken step by step.

If you had just made one change, observed for a few weeks and then added on another (or removed it) you would be further ahead than the risky game of throwing tons of stuff around and seeing how it lands.

[tank130]

Did you guys hear something.......

ya, didn't think so. Carry on, nothing to see here.

[skaffa]

No more BT to discuss with? Shiiiiiiiit should have done that a lot earlier

[tank130]

No more BT to discuss with? Shiiiiiiiit should have done that a lot earlier

Yup, one of our best decisions I think. What really helped was getting a guy that knows the stats inside out, is not biased, and really doesn't give a shit if people criticize what he has done.
He is also very quick to realize if his decisions need a tweak or change.

Couple that with his team player attitude with the rest of the dev team and we get a home run.

[aeroblade56]

Yup, one of our best decisions I think. What really helped was getting a guy that knows the stats inside out, is not biased, and really doesn't give a shit if people criticize what he has done.
He is also very quick to realize if his decisions need a tweak or change.

Couple that with his team player attitude with the rest of the dev team and we get a home run.

So you made 105 tigers balance lead?.

  if you over buff/nerf something its going to take much longer to fix it and to discover what is broken about the unit and or doctrine to fix it.

[Uglysori]

I'm assuming you're still sandboxing these changes with some sort of balance team before implementing?  I'd imagine that is still useful. 

[tank130]

I'm assuming you're still sandboxing these changes with some sort of balance team before implementing?  I'd imagine that is still useful. 

NO... that was the problem.

First of all, it would take weeks of discussion on the team for every change whether it was big or little. In most cases, every member of the team has their own opinion, so you get a shit load of back and forth. I am not saying that is bad, but it results in weeks to get decisions made.

The second problem is much simpler. This is just a mod, not a multi million dollar game office with a dozen full time employees play testing the changes. At best it is 4 or 5 guys on the BT, all in different time zones. It is just physically impossible to get then into a game to play test.

Also keep in mind that a lot of balance issues do not come up until someone puts the right combinations together and then it becomes glaringly obvious. Some things are obvious right away, but like Eirrmod said, sorry we are human and we fuck up.

We have been using a balance team for several years now. As many people like to point out, the balance is not fixed (it will never be, but that's a different conversation). So we are going with this approach.

Just to clarify - the lack of balance or the time it takes to get it done is not the fault of the balance team members. It is the process that fails, not the people.

[skaffa]

Do the changes still have to be approved by the SDT?