Patch R002

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[PonySlaystation]

they're not grenadiers, they were reverted back to their old super low HP.

[nikomas]

they're not grenadiers, they were reverted back to their old super low HP.

Grenadiers with 10 less health, hence "Essentially"... Since when is 70hp low? Point was that 2 pios are equal to 3 engineers with garands in combat power winin margin, just because they have another man does not make them better. Put another way, two pio squads stand a decent chance at beating a rifle squad if you engage at range, they're supposed to be less pop efficient than standard troops, not more, so that's why they're 3 now.

[AmPM]

Grenadiers with 10 less health, hence "Essentially"... Since when is 70hp low? Point was that 2 pios are equal to 3 engineers with garands in combat power winin margin, just because they have another man does not make them better. Put another way, two pio squads stand a decent chance at beating a rifle squad if you engage at range, they're supposed to be less pop efficient than standard troops, not more, so that's why they're 3 now.

They are support units that should never have been given real guns. Their purpose is to lay defenses and build things, detect mines, support, etc.

[narref]

They are support units that should never have been given real guns. Their purpose is to lay defenses and build things, detect mines, support, etc.

Exactly, it's like giving Kar98 to support weapons crew and increasing their population for that. And then hey, that mortar/mg/atg should be +1pop because that guy in the back has a good weapon.
Pios/engies did never need real mp40s/grease neither k98/garands


By the way, new pio mines are also broken, you pay two you get one.

[nikomas]

By the way, new pio mines are also broken, you pay two you get one.

Try now.

[Smokaz]

COH2 builder unit solution?

[XIIcorps]

So pios get worse weapon, get worse health and now they are higher pop? Dat nerf.

But now they can get 2 mines instead of one so...
Which means the defensive unlock T1 defensive minefields is now officially useless.

I don't want to rage against the dev team like many seem to enjoy, but how is this supposed to be a step forward in balance?
How is breaking a unit and a doctrinal unlock which were both working properly going to help balance?

First mp40/greasegun... now kar98/garand, then less health more pop but just for the pios? Seriously guys. Do you even have a plan when it comes to balance the game or do you just pop in random ideas one after another and expect it to magically work at some point?

Dev Edit: If you can not post using your big boy words instead of silly pictures, then please refrain from posting in our forums.

I know balancing the mod may take time, but the way you're do it. It will just take forever.
Get a plan or just hire more monkeys for the balance team.

perspective
Grens 80hp
Volks 60hp
Riflemen 55hp

You get it now ?
Granted 4 pop for a goliath is going to hurt but thats only if your spamming them in the first place.

[narref]

perspective
Grens 80hp
Volks 60hp
Riflemen 55hp

You get it now ?
Granted 4 pop for a goliath is going to hurt but thats only if your spamming them in the first place.

Eh.. you're right but you miss the whole point of what I was talking about so I even know why you bother to quote me.

Engineers/pios had a role which was to build stuff simple as that and it was working properly,  now they are getting worse at their original role patch after patch due to higher cost in exchange of being some kind of hybrid cost inefective unit.
That's what my post was about.



And when it comes to pios vs engies well, unupgraded they might be more or less equal as a combat unit, but only an idiot would use them in such a way.

Pio/engies are only meant for combat when upgraded with flammethrowers and there engies have the upperhand for obvious reasons.

[GrayWolf]

Just give the pios one more guy and downgrade weapons.

[tank130]

I still do not understand why we fucked with pios/engies in the first place?

[GrayWolf]

I still do not understand why we fucked with pios/engies in the first place?

Pios shouldn't be a combat unit, that's all.

[NightRain]

I still do not understand why we fucked with pios/engies in the first place?

It is a question we all shall wonder about.

First and foremost this engineer unit was there for three to two purposes.
-Mine, mine defuse
-Flamer
-Tank traps, healing facilities

Outside of these roles one can pretty much forget about them.

First the test revolved around increasing their combat abilities by giving them proper mp40s, turns out it wasn't good and made engineer squads too strong. 2 Engineer squads 280 zero mun zero unlock Grease gun squad that has ability to become assault riflemen via flamers. Or 2 pio squads effectively being a Grenadier squad with MP40s.

The upgrades weren't the problem, their vanilla form was. Cheap unit, cheap pop, cheap pool.

Next step was to make vanilla form less powerful, thus M1 garands and K98s. What astonishes me though is that instead of Volksgrenadier rifles they gave pios Grenadier rifles and reduced their health.  I'm not one to judge if this is the way to go, but once doctrines come in I'm pretty happy to spam pioneers with Fatherland top Tier 4 with 3 men squads and bunkers and 88s. Basically you can replace grenadiers with pioneers in a 88 build with a little extra cost but with a helpful lower pop benefit. (3 vs 5)

[GrayWolf]

Arg, how many times does it need to be said that they won't come back in their current form? Broken things like that will be addressed, they've already thought about it.

You don't know if they let some of the docs be. Some of them may be changed only by a little bit.

[Hicks58]

Pioneers were originally going to be given V-Kar98k's.

After some testing, it was seen that Engineers could literally run up in their face with either Garands or M1 Carbines and gun them down mercilessly. So in the interests of preserving relatively equal combat effectiveness between Engineers/Pioneers the Pioneers were given full Grenadier rifles and had their health reverted to 70. The pop went up so that you couldn't just field a fuck ton of Engineers/Pioneers instead of mainline infantry, and Pioneers were given the extra mine so that a relatively similar number of Engineers/Pioneers can still deploy a relatively equal number of mines. Defensive's unlock will be looked at for a suitable replacement.

Why was this done to Engineers/Pioneers? Because they are effectively dead weight after deploying defences unless you go out your way to buy flamethrowers (Which isn't practical to give every single Engineer/Pioneer in your company one, unless your name is Heartmann). In vCoH they made up for this by being able to churn out repairs and mines (To your MU's limit) on demand. They cannot do this in EiRR so they need to be useful in-field elsewhere, now they can provide combat support.

[AmPM]

So will ATG's be able to mount HMGs on them, or shoot HE shells? Because unless my opponent fields armor they are dead weight.

Also, why do Pio's only get 1 MP40 while Engineers get 2 Grease guns, will Engineer Flamer upgrade be raised in price?

Why are Engineers more pop efficient for recrews as well?

[Hicks58]

So will ATG's be able to mount HMGs on them, or shoot HE shells? Because unless my opponent fields armor they are dead weight.

Nope, for their price and pop investment they are doing exactly what they need to, vanilla Engineers/Pioneers were hilariously situational.

Also, why do Pio's only get 1 MP40 while Engineers get 2 Grease guns, will Engineer Flamer upgrade be raised in price?

Pios get durability, Engineers get potential damage. If it starts getting skewy then they'll be adjusted - balance is more fluid with less constraints now.

Why are Engineers more pop efficient for recrews as well?

Both are 3 pop and can only recrew once, so uh, what?

Btw are you still lurking and backseat commenting or do you actually play now AmPM?

[AmPM]

I play. On occasion.

Importantly, a Pio squad recrews once, with 2 members. An Engie squad recrews with 3 members. Big difference when recrewing Mortars, ATGs and such. One loss on the Pio recrew, and it's gone, 1 loss on Engie recrew, who cares.

[Hicks58]

55 HP vs 70 HP.

That Engineer loss is going to be much easier than the Pioneer loss.

So is on occasion a per week or per month basis?

[AmPM]

I think I have played about 10 games in the last 2 weeks. There are not a lot of people on so it makes it hard.

Honestly, as boring as it is, Engie/Pio should probably just be mirrored squads.

[nikomas]

I still think Pio's/Engies should carry a mixed Handgun/Rifle loadout