A V R E & Brummbär

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[ick312]

 I dont get, why things are implemented that erase their own counter with ease. In this case: ATGs.  Shreks have a too rough time to damage.

Those things have a range of 45. Think back when tiger+persh had 45 range. And now these AI Tanks have a 45 range.

[GrayWolf]

nerf range or cooldown... srsly

[I2ay]

I wasn't aware that the only counter to AVRE's and sturmpanzers were atgs and hand held at. Why the hell was I under the impression it was vehicle based at like m10s and panthers?

[ick312]

well well, let me think

10 pop for m10 vs 8 of brumm
OR
14 pop for Panther vs 8 of AVRE (+ 1 ATG maybe?(5))

no i neither understand that

[PonySlaystation]

AVRE is 9 pop and Sturmpanzer is a reward unit, the Tiger/Persh can damage tanks and doesn't have a 45 seconds cooldown.

Judging from the game we just played, you had paks on the front line, in front your units without any support or scouting. Any unit can overrun that. Paks can be useful, but it's not the optimal counter, the best counter would be a StuG or Marder.

[ick312]

AVRE is 9 pop and Sturmpanzer is a reward unit, the Tiger/Persh can damage tanks and doesn't have a 45 seconds cooldown.

Judging from the game we just played, you had paks on the front line, in front your units without any support or scouting. Any unit can overrun that. Paks can be useful, but it's not the optimal counter, the best counter would be a StuG or Marder.

14 pop for Panther vs 8 of AVRE (+ 1 ATG maybe?(5))

and jugding from the game we played. Well what should i say?  sniped u like crazy and ur AVRE were just frontally driving into our lines! One shot our ATGs and went back. that decided the game. God we had like 2 ATGs and 1 Marder and couldnt hold u back. we scouted actually with infantry before our atgs

[GrayWolf]

Judging from the game we just played, you had paks on the front line, in front your units without any support or scouting.

I'm JUDGING you saw the replay huh ?

[Mysthalin]

The avre takes 7 seconds to drive up from the pak's max range to its max range, slowly aim and then fire. That is enough time for a well-supported pak to fire 2 shots, pick up and leave the dangerous area completely. Or just fire 3 shots and get decrewed after taking down 40% the HP on the AVRE.


I don't really see why you consider the atg to be a counter to the AVRE/Brummbar. The AVRE/Brummbar are intended, primarily, as support weapon (including ATG) counters as they are too slow and unwieldly to really qualify as good anti-inf.

I've played with and against both AVREs and Brummbars. After the final growing pain of +10 range on brummbars being removed the two units seem to be working perfectly fine and as intended.

[GrayWolf]

Atg don't always penetrate mysth >.<

[Mister Schmidt]

Abusive posts removed.

[Mysthalin]

The first shot always penetrates, the other two have a 45% chance to do it. Assuming they both don't that's 36% health gone from the AVRE through the first shot and 2 bounced shots. A fairer assesment is first shot pen, one of two non-cloak shots bounces, averaging out at 45% health gone.

Me quoting the 40% HP in damage done was actually a low-ball estimate.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I think in this case the theory of the math works on paper, but in-game and in-practice it's clear the AVRE's/Sturms are too powerful for their cost and their pop. It's very common these days to see Sturms racking up 30-55 kills or more which far more expensive, pop intensive units under the same players rarely if ever manage to achieve. They are winning games and having impacts well beyond what they should be capable of on a consistent basis.

The range or the reload should be adjusted. The combo of both of them is making them overpowered in the current meta game.

[I2ay]

The combo of both of them is making them overpowered in the current meta game.

Thats why metagame shifts happen

[TheWindCriesMary]

Yeah I think the big buffs to these units shifted the metagame to where they are over powered, and a slight reduction of that buff would help restore balance to the force. Or at least move it in the right direction.

I know I'm a broken record on saying this, but for balance I still hold that baby steps beats giant leaps.

[PonySlaystation]

The Sturmpanzer had a bug that gave it longer range than Anti-Tank guns which was fixed in the latest hotfix patch, you cannot easily round up 30-55 kills with them anymore. It's effectiveness is similar to artillery in that it can fire precise single shells but because of it's 45 second cooldown it has to stay back a lot, the current range and delay when it fires means that infantry usually have time to get out of the way, it's a support weapon counter.

[Mysthalin]

Now, I've not been very active in the past week, but even before that - after the hotfixes dealing with the range+reload (AVRE) and super range (brummbar) buffs obtained through doc and vet the two units have not really been overperforming. At least I have not seen these godlike 30+ kill AVRE/Brummbars that wind talks of. Does anyone have any recent replays of these units performing as wind describes? If it is common it should not be particularly hard to obtain and post them?

[XIIcorps]

That 3v3 we played yesterday on farm/town outskirts, kipsinas had a 35+ kill AVRE.

That other 3v3 we played where I was on rolcs team vsing you and you dead set had 3x Sturmpanzers on field at any one time all with 25+ kills.

[skaffa]

45 sec is lolretarded IMO

[TheWindCriesMary]

It's absolutely ridiculous. The second I found out AVRE/Sturm had 45 second reload I did a spit take. As a guy who used AVRE's this past year more than pretty much anyone even when they were absolute garbage (out of sheer dumb stubborness), 45 seconds is way, way, way too fast. Especially when they can now shoot so far.

In terms of kill counts, I've been in fewer games the past week where a Sturm Panzer on the field had less than 25 kills than I have where one had 30+. I've seen 45+ kill ones multiple times. Hell, it's been rare to see Korps' have less than 30-40ish by the time a game is over. In a balanced game that's a tremendous amount of damage for even a well microed super persh/tiger/jagtiger to do and those things cost significantly more and (in the case of the AVRE) are mostly reward units. That elevates a unit to "game changer" status in a particular battle. Sturms/AVRE's are reliably reaching that status which just isn't where they should be at for their cost and pop.

[XIIcorps]

If they keep current stats I would like to see them elevated to 12 pop. To drastically reduce support for them.