[WM/CW/US] Medium Tanks

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[TheWindCriesMary]

why you guys want price changes so much? Instead of ''boring balance'' like changing price we should move on and do some real changes and make an impact in unit's role.

Couldn't agree with this more. Price changes are not only not terribly interesting, even more importantly they're not really solutions to problems. They just change the availability/numerical prevalence of the problem.

Occasionally they have a role to play (price changes) but rarely.

Giving units clear roles that they can perform in effectively in a way no other type of unit can quite do the same way is how we make Mediums viable and prevalent in the mod.

[tank130]

why you guys want price changes so much? Instead of ''boring balance'' like changing price we should move on and do some real changes and make an impact in unit's role.

I certainly can see your point, but I think we also need to consider the impact of trying to change stats.

Changing the stat of a unit will impact every other unit in the game and can also be impacted by doctrines and vet. For the balance team to think of every single situation that can be impacted by a stat change is impossible. Making the change can have negative effects that are not realized until months down the road when someone puts together the right combination.

Change the stat just a wee bit and everyone says it's not worth it. Change it to have impact and it can create a wave of issues. Finding the perfect amount can be extremely difficult.

I think the best approach it to use the least overall impact solution first - Pricing. If that fails to be the solution, then the price should be reverted and stat changes implemented.

We certainly need to move away from VCoH stats for our environment, but I disagree it should be our first step when balancing.

[jackmccrack]

I am part of the price-change clique.

[Shabtajus]

look tank as i said at the same time when we are buffing medium tanks  we dont touch counters.

The main problem in previous balance changes that they were done with over hyped atitude. For example back in the days nerfing panther's accuracy vs in and at the same time making m10s/ m18s better, so it was double nerf to panther. Panther dissapeared from the battle field.

I am not asking buff medium tank's splash to the insane amount or match heavy tank's splash. Ofcourse i do agree pricing is one of the balance tools but on other hand with my humble opinion i think we can be way more interesting mod by giving some roles to units instead of making them more expensive/cheaper variant of other unit. EIRR is still alive bcause it gives different way of unit usage than vCOH does. As you said devs have plans to move up and create enviroment of balance that will be different form what vCOH has.

So why hold yourself? What you gonna lose? Ok maybe it will be fail change and will cause some balance problems but hey when everyone was happy about balance here?

[CrazyWR]

I am part of the price-change clique.

[tank130]

look tank as i said at the same time when we are buffing medium tanks  we dont touch counters.

I think you may have misunderstood my point. I agree 100% with you shab: Do not touch the counters.

But what you may be missing is how a stat change to a P4 (for example) is going to affect every allied unit in the game. There is always going to be a cause and affect when changing a stat. It is not just a simple calculation against it's counter.

In most cases the effect could be next to nothing on most other units, but sometimes it will have significant difference. That's the really hard part about calculating the cause & effect of stat changes.

All I am saying is prices changes should always be the first step. Stat changes should be second.

[XIIcorps]

What if no pool is the problem that facilitates LV spam or Heavies being more viable then Mediums ?

[CrazyWR]

this problem is not new to no pool.  Mediums weren't effective before pool was removed either.

[tank130]

Crazy is correct, but we did not have such a large LV spam problem prior to pool removal.

But this thread really is about making mediums more viable, so is LV spam the reason why they are not? I don't think so.

[XIIcorps]

As suggested I think an incremental acc buff to mediums is in order.

[nikomas]

Mediums quite reliably snipe infantry, if mediums got increased splash and AI effectiveness we can kiss handheld AT a long farewell as it'd be relegated to fighting light vehicles and structures. The ability to kill 1-2 men per hit is good enough in the AI department.

[aeroblade56]

I enjoyed my. Xyz amount of small repair kits. And added hp

[XIIcorps]

Mediums quite reliably snipe infantry, if mediums got increased splash and AI effectiveness we can kiss handheld AT a long farewell as it'd be relegated to fighting light vehicles and structures. The ability to kill 1-2 men per hit is good enough in the AI department.

Vs LVs tho ?

[Heartmann]

Why not upp its dmg resistant modifiers and/or health?

[nikomas]

Why not upp its dmg resistant modifiers and/or health?

I say again, have you seen a battle between a sherman and a panzerIV? If they took less damage... oh god, I'd cry

[skaffa]

I like P4s only when they have panzer aces T3. Without it I wont use em.
Sherman with old mark target jeep on armour was good too. Sherman also a lot better with mobile warfare, with the extra speed.

Id look into upping default p4 accuracy and upping speed of sherman. Sherman will have better time dealing with 6 pop rapemarders and dealing with 45 range, improved tracking stugs.

[tank130]

Id look into upping default p4 accuracy and upping speed of sherman. Sherman will have better time dealing with 6 pop rapemarders and dealing with 45 range, improved tracking stugs.

Not a bad idea.What do you think of maybe adding a little better accuracy against LV with that? Not a bunch, just a small tweak.

[GrayWolf]

Both units need dmg buff (right?)

[Smokaz]

The dedicated / specialist armor of US (Croc, m10, m18) seem to do better than the sherman/upgun sherman. I think it has to do with the long standing mentality that you build a company with 3-4 units that are "core", and everything else is sort of replacement or problem-solver for the core.

It's also a bit like this, when can bringing a sherman 75" ever do better vs inf than the croc (sometimes in a game where using the range would matter very much, but usually not) and m10/m18 getting "help" from upgun.

[Smokaz]

I like P4s only when they have panzer aces T3. Without it I wont use em.
Sherman with old mark target jeep on armour was good too. Sherman also a lot better with mobile warfare, with the extra speed.

Id look into upping default p4 accuracy and upping speed of sherman. Sherman will have better time dealing with 6 pop rapemarders and dealing with 45 range, improved tracking stugs.

P4 has good accuracy already vs inf. 75%? Are you talking about it's accuracy while moving or shooting at LVs or tanks?

You have to be still when you shoot and be patient over the course of the game. It's the same unit that wittmann etc used to rack up tons of infantry kills with. Why is it not worth it?

I think this is a much larger problem for the 75", a unit which has fewer armor targets it can cost effectively engage, and every miss vs inf is very bad for the sherman as cover and modifiers already make it unable to 1 hit axis inf some of the time.

I also have to say that increased the base speed of the sherman will make them go carts with MW. MW is in my eyes already incredibly strong in the hands of a confident player, who knows when to go balls deep and when to just softly graze the enemy.

I would like to see a sherman 75mm priced at 180 fuel more than a change to its speed.