[WM/CW/US] Medium Tanks

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[TheWindCriesMary]

I think many have noticed that, in the current metagame, traditional medium tanks are not well represented nor very effective for their cost or intended purpose.

By these I mean:
P4
Sherman (upgun and normal)
Cromwell

I think this is due to the fact that the current metagame favours either optimized mobility (light vehicles) or optimized resilience (JP, Sturm, Super Pershing/TA, Panther) and these main line medium tanks unfortunately fall in the mediocre gray area between these two. Excelling at neither and, in the case of mobility, actually being inferior or roughly on par with bigger vehicles like the tiger, Pershing, jp , panther.

With that in mind, I think there is an opportunity to make these medium tanks more effective at living up to their promise of being viable anti infantry/lv units capable of supporting infantry effectively while being more mobile than their bigger, heavier cousins.

Recommendations:
a) Potential Speed increases
b) Slight armour improvements
c) Improved anti-inf capability
d) Other potential solves?

[Korpisolttu]

You're right, they're pretty unused atm and not really worth to invest resources (except with some doc. spez. puffs??). All good recommendations, maybe I'd make them more effective against infantry or lower their cost?

[GrayWolf]

Every of these tanks is different and should be different. Crom is good as it is. It has flank speed and cripple the infantry pretty well. It can also destroy TDs and HTs easily.
Sherman... Better moving accuracy (losses it when it has a 76mm). Allies should be more flexible, 75mm would be better for push (remember that it has enough pen to destroy other mediums).
PZ IV. I think it's good as it is. Maybe some better stationary accuracy? Dunno.

[Illegal_Carrot]

They're all definitely underpowered at the moment, especially with all their abilities locked away at vet 1.

I don't feel like the issue is with the tanks themselves, though. The issue is everyone overloading on AT to deal with vehicle spam, super heavies, and reward units. Get rid of these reward units (super heavies other than the KT and JPanther should be outright removed, anyways), and you'll see people shift their resources away from AT and into other avenues, and medium tanks should become viable then.

[tank130]

I don't feel like the issue is with the tanks themselves, though. The issue is everyone overloading on AT to deal with vehicle spam, super heavies, and reward units. 

Yup, this........

This mod has turned into AT spamming to offset the spamming of vehicles.

[GrayWolf]

They're all definitely underpowered at the moment, especially with all their abilities locked away at vet 1.

I don't feel like the issue is with the tanks themselves, though. The issue is everyone overloading on AT to deal with vehicle spam, super heavies, and reward units. Get rid of these reward units (super heavies other than the KT and JPanther should be outright removed, anyways), and you'll see people shift their resources away from AT and into other avenues, and medium tanks should become viable then.

Looks like you don't even know about the wipe. Anyway PZ IV doesn't have any ablities Maybe he should have one on vet 1, hmmmm?

[TheWindCriesMary]

Yeah to echo Gary, overloading on AT just is zero percent a prob at the moment post reset. Its simply not happening or a reality of the current metagame. And medium tanks are still underperforming and under represented.

Also this had zero impact on LVs that were prevalent even in late-war when AT was being loaded up on and medium tanks were still both underpowered and underrepresented so we can already conclude this potential theory doesn't hold true.


The reality is, if I'm on us or CW I don't need to take Sherman's or croms because I know a t17 or stag serves the same role just as (if not more) effectively for much less pop and cost.

[GrayWolf]

The reality is, if I'm on us or CW I don't need to take Sherman's or croms because I know a t17 or stag serves the same role just as (if not more) effectively for much less pop and cost.

The reality is, if I'm on us or CW I don't need to take t17s or stag because I know a crom or sherman serves the same role just as (if not more) effectively for much less pop and cost.


In other words : t17/stag cannot fight tanks without spamming. Sometimes good microed sherman can kill plenty and has better alpha damage. It has more HP, so it can survive more ATG shots.
Medium tanks are jacks of all trades. The are not the best at anything, but they can fight anything.

[TheWindCriesMary]

The reality is, if I'm on us or CW I don't need to take t17s or stag because I know a crom or sherman serves the same role just as (if not more) effectively for much less pop and cost.

....uhhhh?

Also you on CW or US using shermans and croms is something I hope to see one day.

[NightRain]

Myst was working on the issue before he was replaced, he has given all his work and documents (which he had finished before ending up leaving for X amount of time) so it is all up to the other person to use and utilize or ignore and do something else. Mediums are basically crap in most scenarios because there are things which are simply better and more cost effective without getting gimped resource wise.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Mediums are basically crap in most scenarios because there are things which are simply better and more cost effective without getting gimped resource wise.

Bang on right here

[tank130]

Myst was working on the issue before he was replaced, he has given all his work and documents (which he had finished before ending up leaving for X amount of time) so it is all up to the other person to use and utilize or ignore and do something else.

Are you Myst's secretary or personal assistant or something? No offense, but you continue to make posts about what Myst is doing, going to do, has done, may do and how that may or may not be handled by someone else.

I appreciate the feedback, but perhaps we should just allow Myst to update us and leave the hearsay out of it. I understand you may be friends as well, but if Myst is at all serious about helping the mod, he can take the 30 seconds to make a post stating he is still around to help.

On that note, I have been in communication with Myst and we are still moving forward with him as our balance lead in conjunction with the other person as needed.

[NightRain]

Are you Myst's secretary or personal assistant or something? No offense, but you continue to make posts about what Myst is doing, going to do, has done, may do and how that may or may not be handled by someone else.

None, I pointed out that this issue with mediums is known and is being worked on. Thus it means that there will be something done about mediums (Hopefully) other than absurd stat changes when the mediums in a sense are fine stats wise. The true issue is that some things are more cost effective or cheaper i.e Heavy tanks.

[aeroblade56]

How does you know what myst was working on?. i thought that was super detailed dev secrets that no one else should know.

[nikomas]

Call me nuts, but I want to see an increase in medium tank AT efficiency, infantry die easilly enough but medium tank damage output is truly pathetic. Ever seen a Sherman and PzIV fight eachother? It takes ages, it's one of the most depressing things to watch in the entire game.


Say what you want about CoH2, I do like that they did with tanks in general. As a rule tank survivability is more armor based than health and even the mighty KT "Only" gets 1280 health... Medium tanks in general there roll with 640. Of course, armor makes a giant difference and it doesn't have as many "100% penetration" firefly type guns, but I digress. In any case, two medium tanks can kill a heavy if you play it right and that certainly does NOT happen in eirr.

All in all, I look forward to EiRR2 if/when it happens, if only because I like how the tanks are setup in coh2 way more.



In any case, I think two mediums should be able to tackle a heavy given some reasonable micro or at the very least give it pause. I think a panther should actually have to give pause when two upgunned Shermans go at it, or a Pershing have to give a fuck when two panzers barrel at it... They really don't have to do that right now.

Alternatively buff Hull MG's, cause heat rounds doctrine makes panzers fun times.

[NightRain]

Simple, I asked what he thought of mediums and he said there should be a change. What kind of change you ask? I wouldn't know, ask the anonymous dev.

I do like what niko suggests but I wouldn't follow it. In my opinion mediums are fine but they are expensive (my personal preference) which makes Medium companies not only gimped but also quite easy to out ration by just spamming anti tank guns.

[Hicks58]

It's also worth noting that the base design of vCoH mediums (Which is what we have) is based around them being available in large numbers, easy enough to replace and being part of a much larger force that is already present.

By the time somebody gets a KT out in vCoH you've got 2-4 Shermans derping about alongside a respectable Rifleman/Engineer/Support weapon force.

A Medium in EiRR represents half to a quarter of your entire fighting force, where they were originally designed as all around filler units.

Lights and Heavies have been tweaked to reflect the environment of EiRR (Via pop and price mostly), but Mediums have remained largely unchanged, they even got the short end of the stick by being much more pop intensive than vCoH.

It's why I always advocated breaking vCoH balance - We've got a completely different environment in EiRR as you can't freely repair, units are finite and pop is MUCH more constrained.

Though I suppose if we bumped up player pop to 60-80, doubled company resources and re-enabled free Engineer based repairs mediums would very much find their niche.

[aeroblade56]

Hicks is absolutely right. Axis are OP.

on another note using cromwells without Flankspeed you might aswell throw in the towel.

[Shabtajus]

Are you Myst's secretary or personal assistant or something?

lol tank i had the same question but my post was deleted tbh

yea double standarts in eirr ffs, who ever deleted ma posts about speedy and his pasion to mysth shoulda delete and tank's post tbh, just for justice

i demand justice

[jackmccrack]

Well the amount of fuel was decreased (well, it was never intended to be as high as it was) to reduce the amount of vehicles and in turn reduce the amount of AT needed, but that hasn't worked out as inteneded. People still bring as much AT as they used to (often as it's needed to counter the super heavies), which makes Mediums even worse off as they were before (loosing one is a bigger loss, and you can't take as many risks with them), while all other vehcles are for the most part uneffected (lights and super heavies). Also people often said that they prefered infantry combat so wanted less vehicles, but now Infantry combat for the most part has just degraded into blobs, which i'd say is worse.

Quoted for truth.