Commandos test (unit vs unit)

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[GrayWolf]

VIDEO : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r77qbDh0wMw&feature=youtu.be

What we got is :

Oak leaves defense in the green cover - mandos (stens) attack + grenade usage. Mandos win.
Commando (stens) attack on Oak leaves. No grenade, no cover usage for both sides. Mandos win.
Mandos (stens) and volks (mp40s) both attacking. No grenade, no pop up smoke. Mandos lose one man. Mandos win.
2x Mandos (rifles) defense in green cover + grenade. KCH attack. KCH losses. (this was a fail, cause there should be KCH squad + volks).
Same mandos (rifles) squads got attacked by KCHs + volks. Mandos lose. (This fight was right, compared to the one before).

Smoke usage :

Mandos (stens) + officer attack frontally mg42, while mortar is dropping smoke. Mandos don't get suppresed, no need for pop up smoke. Mandos win. ( This was just a suppression/damage test while in smoke).
3x Volks (Mp40s) attack commandos (stens) + LT in smoke. Volks lose 6 man. Mandos lose.

Conclusion :

Mandos are good while defending. Any infantry which get close will die in a sec. Mandos can only attack, when there's a mortar using smoke. When there's a smoke, they barely take any damage. There are 2 counters for mandos :
Mines and arty. Mandos are the best allied close combat unit. Oak leaves are just a bit better.

Why mandos are so good in our opinion?

Due to their ROF they are really good while in smoke. Their burst duration may not be the very best, but they seriously don't have to reload. While they have lt support, their cooldown (35%!) and acc are far better and can beat any infantry without a problem.

Pros :
- Great firepower. (stens)
- Nice survability.
- Works nice with smoke.
- Can get out of any dangerous situation.
- Best in-game grenade.
- You can drop them anywhere on the map.
- 6 man. Harder to snipe the whole squad. Same for the explosives.
- You can buy demos, which can be placed anywhere.

Cons :
- Can get easily killed, while suppresed (mines, nebel)
- Bad at medium and long range.
- Vanilla rifles don't fit them very well.
- They need a teamwork, due to their pop cost. Most of the time you need allied AT support.
- They are very expensive infantry (stens), while they can give only a small profit, if used without recon. (same as KCH or any close combat/attacking infantry).
- 6 man. Easier to suppress. Harder to micro.

Stay tuned for a video. If you have any serious pros/cons suggestions for them, write them in the comments.
I'm thinking about creating more videos about doctrinal units. I'll also upgrade the quality of the video, cause this imo was bad. (U'll see).

[nikomas]

Pros :
- Great firepower.
Worst Non-Engineer SMG in the game, 3rd worst rifle after Volk/Waffle Rifles
- Nice survability.
- Works nice with smoke.
As pointed out below, works the same as any other SMG unit in smoke.
- Can get out of any dangerous situation.At Vet1, with a longer cooldown than my buss ride to work.
- Best in-game grenade.That'd be bundle grenades.
- You can drop them anywhere on the map.In killable gliders, so nowhere actually close to the enemy.
- 6 man. Harder to snipe the whole squad. Same for the explosives.
^Sure, but I'd rather take the heroic crits 
Cons :
- Can get easily killed, while suppresed (mines, nebel)
Like every single unit in the game, irrelevant.
- Bad at medium and long range.
Unless you happen to have enfields, where you want to stay the fuck out of close range.
- Vanilla rifles don't fit them very well.
Pointed out before, rifle + officer is more cost effective than Stens.
- They need a teamwork, due to their pop cost. Most of the time you need allied AT support.
Nothing different from other elite units, irrelevant.
- They are very expensive infantry (stens), while they can give only a small profit, if used without recon. (same as KCH or any close combat/attacking infantry).
Implying this does not conflict with the idea of gliderdropping troops behind enemy lines, something you listed as a pro and something you certainly will have a lack of recon for doing.
- 6 man. Easier to suppress. Harder to micro.

At least you got some things right I guess? Clearly shows how little you actually play mandoes thou.

Due to their ROF they are really good while in smoke. Their burst duration may not be the very best, but they seriously don't have to reload. While they have lt support, their cooldown (35%!) and acc are far better and can beat any infantry without a problem.

You guys are absolutely retarded if you think commando stens are somehow better in smoke than other SMG's, they're NOT. They have the exact same modifiers (0.25% acc), They have the same rate of fire (10) as a Thompson so I guess they're king of smoke to? And officers, really? Okay, how about you buy a machinegun team or a Goliath for that extra munitions and 3 pop, problem solved, mandoes fucking dead.

Oak leaves defense in the green cover - mandos (stens) attack + grenade usage. Mandos win.
Test flawed because no self-respecting OAK user would just sit there and take the grenade without dodging, also 175muni for one unit.

Commando (stens) attack on Oak leaves. No grenade, no cover usage for both sides. Mandos win.
Hoping to see that video, I'm going to assume the vet 1 smoke ability was used.

Mandos (stens) and volks (mp40s) both attacking. No grenade, no pop up smoke. Mandos lose one man. Mandos win.
1. Why where they both attacking? The MP40 has superior range as said before and should be standing still at medium range, fail usage, fail test.
2. The fact the commandos actually lost a man if both of them literally charged into close range like you say, is telling.

2x Mandos (rifles) defense in green cover + grenade. KCH attack. KCH losses. (this was a fail, cause there should be KCH squad + volks).
Two riflesquads with grenades could probably do that, so yes, pretty fail test, not sure why you mentioned it.



Mandos (stens) + officer attack frontally mg42, while mortar is dropping smoke. Mandos don't get suppresed, no need for pop up smoke. Mandos win. ( This was just a suppression/damage test while in smoke).
Rangers with thompsons could have done this, GREASE GUN RIFLEMEN OR EVEN TOMMIES could have done th... I can't take this shit anymore, putting this in a quote.

There was much gnashing of teeth writing this.

[Smokaz]

By mando SMG working in smoke, they are probably talking about that mandos are dealing damage while using their ninja ability. This is afaik not a real smoke ability, but a smoke-like gfx giving moving + attacking cloak around the AOE for the duration.

Not sure about the AOE part. But its either a timed cloak ability or AoE.

Feel free to correct me, but this is how it seemingly works ingame.

[Hicks58]

Ditto on Niko, both for the statistical points and the gnashing of teeth whilst reading Gray's post.

[GrayWolf]

Not sure about the AOE part. But its either a timed cloak ability or AoE.

AoE.

Dunno why Oaks lose to them, niko, if they are soooo bad (stens). Gonna upload video, for more hate from Nikomas, because "we did sth bad". You actually didn't read the first part, but you just tried to correct me, based on your personal opinion (pros/cons). I think Stens aren't like any other SMG, cause they don't need to reload so many times + they still have an officer for better buffs. Also any other infantry unit cannot get invisible in close combat ;-/ .

"Rangers with thompsons could have done this, GREASE GUN RIFLEMEN OR EVEN TOMMIES could have done th... I can't take this shit anymore, putting this in a quote."

(This was just a suppression/damage test while in smoke).

It was done to encourage people to use smoke.

I just want to ask one thing. Why oaks lose to stens in 1v1, if they are so bad? No mortar smoke, no grenade. Just stens and oaks.

Commando (stens) attack on Oak leaves. No grenade, no cover usage for both sides. Mandos win.

Maybe corsix will tell ya.

[Shabtajus]

u guys (ick, garry and rest axis fanboyslims) stop doing retarded stuff playing mandos. I saw few time how you use them. Come on man nobody plays like that > dropps mlt with 2 x mandos stens > LOLOLO charging > losing all manods > team8s sucks > dropped from a game > coming to forums > mandos OP just team cba

[GrayWolf]

This is why we made unit vs unit comparision. We may be bad, but some 1v1 would prove sth... Well this is also how stats work, on comparision.

[XIIcorps]

I dont get how you got some of those results gary.
Oaks Kch with their 4x MP44s would have started damaging mandos at medium range,  and then really started hitting them at 15ms short range.
Unless im reading the wrong stats kch elite armor would have absorbed alot of dmg from the stens while the mandos soldier armor would have melted like an asteroid on entry into atmosphere.

I also noted in your test you had a MLT, I thought it was a unit vs unit comparison not combined arms.

also what unlocks did both of you have ?

[nikomas]

u guys (ick, garry and rest axis fanboyslims) stop doing retarded stuff playing mandos. I saw few time how you use them. Come on man nobody plays like that > dropps mlt with 2 x mandos stens > LOLOLO charging > losing all manods > team8s sucks > dropped from a game > coming to forums > mandos OP just team cba

Heh, so that's how that game went.

Can't wait for that video man.

[GrayWolf]

I dont get how you got some of those results gary.
Oaks Kch with their 4x MP44s would have started damaging mandos at medium range,  and then really started hitting them at 15ms short range.
Unless im reading the wrong stats kch elite armor would have absorbed alot of dmg from the stens while the mandos soldier armor would have melted like an asteroid on entry into atmosphere.

I also noted in your test you had a MLT, I thought it was a unit vs units comparison not combined arms.

also what unlocks did both of you have ?

No doctrinal upgrades from mando side. Lt was used only in smoke testing aka vs 3 volks squads. I thought it has defensive modifiiers ;-;. Every Mando vs KCH fight was done 1v1 like. They only thing commando had was vet 1 for smoke and I think they had vet 2 on the open field (1.15 shit accuracy). U will see the results in 8 hours. (morning).

[XIIcorps]

No doctrinal upgrades from mando side. Lt was used only in smoke testing aka vs 3 volks squads. I thought it has defensive modifiiers ;-;. Every Mando vs KCH fight was done 1v1 like. U will see the resaults in 8 hours. (morning).

AKA stands for also known as, please stop breaking English language.

Can't wait for video

[GrayWolf]

CHANGE OF PLANS. VIDEO IN 10 MINUTES. Fuck HD. I also cut the talking, cause I feel, like nobody would ever listen to me in EiR. Less talking, more working.

EDIT: the shit is real. We're ready for hate
Oaks would win, if they had vet 1 (1:30), but yeah... Cost more and whatever, who rush them frontaly ;p
I posted my ideas for buff in the description. I also have to test mandos top t4 vs Terror mid t4. Result should be better I think. Mid t4 needs rework, more than any other t4 (the whole route)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r77qbDh0wMw&feature=youtu.be

[Hicks58]

Engagement 1: Oaks sat and ate grenade. Player error.

Engagement 2: Oaks members may very well have been out of short range for the back 2/3 Commandos (MP44 short range 6 vs Sten 8 short range), shown in the front Commandos getting minced and the back ones taking considerably longer (For SMG times) even when accounting reload time. More player error.

Engagement 3: Vet 2 vs vet 0 combined with quick bursts (MP44's can have very short bursts, 3-4 of them in a row can empty a mag much faster than you want, IE horrible luck). Player shouldn't have been engaging vet 2 out in the open with a 3 man KCH squad.

Engagement 4: What the hell were you expecting?

[GrayWolf]

So basicly u say it was a luck? It's not about an in-game experiance, but pure 1v1. You can say, "I would use MG and mandos would be dead", but it's 1v1 testing, okay? We just wanted to confirm, that axis infantry losses with mandos in a straight fight. This also means, that mandos don't need any firepower buff. I hardly can find any buff idea, but lowering stens cost would make them more common.

[Hicks58]

Read my post, read it properly and then consider posting.

[nikomas]

Uh huh, solid testing, Using Grenades, having a disparity in vet (You realize vet 1 gives a rather neat defensive buff, making it uneven) and then going on to pair them off with 3 man kch? I'm just saying.

I can do this to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA8s-AVvbs0 (It'll process into hd soon enough)
Note the last battle and how using medkits would just fuck over the engagement.

Anyway, they can, if lucky, take out a kch squad with the smoke ability. But that requires the squad to be vet 1 and they have no good way of healing so they have to retreat for a CCS, if you have it ready. They do not have any anti-vehicle defense either. But KCH Vs. Mando fights are rare, the real killer for all elite inf is armor. KCH have a significantly higher chance to survive tank shells (large HP pool, heroic crits and so on) and thats why the MP cost is higher. This was done without any doctrines ofc, with doctrines (like fanatacism or pills) the mandoes dont stand a snowballs chance in hell.

So basicly u say it was a luck? It's not about an in-game experiance, but pure 1v1. You can say, "I would use MG and mandos would be dead", but it's 1v1 testing, okay? We just wanted to confirm, that axis infantry losses with mandos in a straight fight.

In a 1v1 fight, players try to dodge grenades. Anyway, above you'll see plenty 1v1 fights and that KCH win more than lose with almost zero imput on either squad once the fighting starts aside from the odd attack command. I got bored after the 7th one or however many there was.


Edit: lol, watching that again, the second fight was decided by the AI decided to take cover on the OTHER SIDE of the enemy squad all of a sudden, the KCH were winning before that happeneed, lol.

[GrayWolf]

vet 1 is just req for smoke, that's why I used them.
Still u get cooky about the first fight lol, when the second one is more accurate.
Oh fanaticism... wow, then I take top t4 for mandos...
Also, when you upgrade your oak with panzerfaust, pills and all (what you normaly do), mandos might not stand a chance, but 135 ammo vs >200 ammo with faust and pills...

Still I think mandos beat KCH nicely. I think you should use pop up smoke, like I did.

BTW weren't u using fanaticism KCH? They shoot so fast lol.

EDIT : Hey, you down there, I watched your video, so don't post shit about me not bothering at all.

[nikomas]

vet 1 is just req for smoke, that's why I used them.
Still u get cooky about the first fight lol, when the second one is more accurate.
Oh fanaticism... wow, then I take top t4 for mandos...
Also, when you upgrade your oak with panzerfaust, pills and all (what you normaly do), mandos might not stand a chance, but 135 ammo vs >200 ammo with faust and pills...

Still I think mandos beat KCH nicely.

You mean the fight where the KCH AI decided to stop fighting, ditch the green cover and run to the yellow cover on the other side of the mando squad, leaving it exposed and not shooting back for several seconds? Gary, I left that in there to see how much you actually bothered to watch, you amuse me.

[GrayWolf]

The last thing.

I don't want mandos to win vs Oaks, who cost 235 ammo (panzerfaust, medkit, pills)... I wanted sth at the same cost effectivness

[nikomas]

Also, "I would have won they were reloading, wanted to keep vet". -Graywolf

Actually, the KCH won since you retreated, just like you would have done in a normal game to save your vet smoke ability. Retreating = Loss, See how these tests don't show the real game at all nor does the ones I did? It's never 1v1, it's never really to the last man and it's never really a straight up slugfight.


Who says they'll ever beat medkitted, pilled oaks? I don't think anything can, cept maybe 6x Thompson rangers but it'd be a damned close fight.