Tiger Ace / Super Pershing

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[tank130]

There appears to be a general opinion that both the Super Pershing & the Tiger Ace need some changes.

We no longer have a balance team and Mysthalin and our secret balance dude have also gone MIA.

So we are asking the community to give their opinions on what changes we should consider.

To be honest gents, there are 3 of us on the Dev team and we had a meeting today. We all agreed that we are guilty of ignoring the balance forums, but we all agreed for the same reason. Most of the threads just become a slew of arguments and trolling, then usually ends with a lock.

I guess what we are asking is could you just post what you feel needs to be changed and NOT respond to someone else's opinion. Even if you agree or disagree, just ignore it and post your suggestion.

Your cooperation will really help us fix this up.

REMINDER: This is about the Tiger Ace & Super Pershing. Please start another thread for other issues.

[XIIcorps]

Both tend to overperform based on cost.

Should also make a hardcap that you cant have other heavies with them, like many players tend to run an extra Pershing or Tiger.

[Hicks58]

Remove the TA's 0.85 inf accuracy with HE rounds, bring it back to the standard 0.75.

Remove the SP's ability to engage infantry at the 41-45 range margin. The TA works because AP has 45 and HE has 40, that's good (Except the unnecessary 0.85 acc). The SP has only one ammo type which it uses to nuke inf at all ranges.

Honestly, mirroring the ammo types that the TA uses would be fine for the SP.

Or, even better, bring the SP's range down to 40 and beef it's durability some. It already has the .50cal for the increased AI, and it has massive damage/penetration buffs by default. You could turn the SP into the one thing that the Allies don't have, and that's a real tanky heavy tank. At the moment it has 1100 HP and Pershing armour +0.8 incoming penetration. The armour buff is good, but the health is still meh considering that it's the Allies only "Super" heavy tank. Bringing it up to the 1400/1500 range (And increasing repair kits to account) whilst killing it's range down to 40 and it's AI acc back to it's proper 0.75 (That's a bug fix, not a suggestion, the TA and SP AI acc should have been fixed LONG ago as it was a mistake that they got changed to 0.85) would make the SP a nice and tanky unit without roflstomping all that moved.

It should also hold the TA/SP balance as the SP would win if it got close quarters due to durability, and the TA could win due to kiting.

[GORKHALI]

if we make SP a super heavy tank for allies then it shouldn't have the speed of a Pershing it is too fast for a super heavy tank at the moment, bring its speed to KT coz its rediculious .

as for TA give the commander on top of the tank , without it its no Ace tank. and fix the heat and armor piercing toggle , coz i went though a lot of game in the past before wipe that one game i can toggle heat rounds and Armor piercing rounds and then the second game i couldn't toggle rounds , so in other words it works one game and then the 2nd game it doesn't work so its random. most of the game i had to play the whole game without heat rounds and without it TA is shit against infantry where SP doen't have to toggle and is effective against inf and tanks .

[Mister Schmidt]

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=28413.msg488733#msg488733

[NightRain]

I agree with Gork on that one. A vehicle should never have 3 aspects (Armor, Firepower, Speed) Current SP has them all. If its accel and dec were decreased and top speed reduced it'd lose the advantage of Speed and would keep firepower and armor.

[tank130]

Thanks for the link schmidt, but bouncing thread to thread is unproductive. For a 3 man Dev team with very little time, thread bouncing is a pain 

Quoting is our friend....lol

Axis/Allies Tiger Ace & Super Pershing

Link to Thread: 1) http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=28345.0
                        2) http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=28356.0

Problem: These super heavies dramatically change games and require massive investments, coordination and luck from the opposing team way beyond their cost to counter and, sometimes, eliminate. They consistently rack up 40-50 (sometimes far more) kills per game, especially in the hands of good players, and are super dominant even against their intended counters.

Possible Solutions:

TA:
a) Remove and/or reduce considerably many of the 7x buffs received during hicks era to make it simply a slightly better tiger
b) Make it only a tiger that has better vet bonuses and the added bonus of great veterancy based unlock abilities
c) Limit the amount of repairs it can get to 1
d) Remove from game

SP:
a) Reduce the severity of its vet bonuses
b) Make it only a slightly better Pershing with added bonus of veterancy based abilities
c) Limit repairs to 1
d) Remove from game

[aeroblade56]

Thanks for the link schmidt, but bouncing thread to thread is unproductive. For a 3 man Dev team with very little time, thread bouncing is a pain  

Quoting is our friend....lol

anywho. i suggested that we give them both SP TA a choice of AP and HE rounds with a longer cooldown between changing shell types.

make them both 40 range or make AP +2 range.
make the cooldown between round choice some like 15-20s. idk if you can give modifiers to shell types but you could make the modifier vs tanks.

and make HE have probably a higher splash but way lower damage and pen. this way if you used combined arms your kinda sunk with choosing a shell type and sitting on your hands for 20s and can run the risk of rushing it in that time span.


i would also look into the buffs certain doctrines give to tanks. a Blitzkrieg TA with its extra 15% damage and 20% accuracy probably wont give a shit if it gets nerfed by .5 accuracy or something.

likewise a super pershing with calling it in and double repairs is devastating.

the abilities should be looked at. i think its kinda bullshit that the tiger ace gets the S mine and can lul run towards a atg hug it and destroy it.

just like sitting immobile with extra accuracy and range is a death setence to a super pershing.

you could lower their accuracy further or something and make their effectiveness tied into vet and abilities more.

Vet1 5%+ increased accuracy and abilities of timed shot.( timed shot makes tank slower or immobile for a certain duration but can hit with extreme accuracy.

this way you can nerf the tanks to a reasonable level put still expect them at vet 3 to perform much better than the vet 0.

- no snide remarks at devs - smokaz

[Hicks58]

Yeah I know, one post per person and this isn't about the TA/SP directly, but it is very much related.

Is any of this, or the design stuff for the vehicles even gonna get done at all? Balance Lead and mysteryman102947 are both AWOL and no patch has been seen or heard from for 4 months.

We can all throw around our nice and neat and batshit crazy and plain stupid ideas all we want, but it's moot if nobody is on the job.

Is there anyone who is ready to step up to it, or are we just throwing around talk for the sake of it?

[aeroblade56]

Yeah I know, one post per person and this isn't about the TA/SP directly, but it is very much related.

Is any of this, or the design stuff for the vehicles even gonna get done at all? Balance Lead and mysteryman102947 are both AWOL and no patch has been seen or heard from for 4 months.

We can all throw around our nice and neat and batshit crazy and plain stupid ideas all we want, but it's moot if nobody is on the job.

Is there anyone who is ready to step up to it, or are we just throwing around talk for the sake of it?

Probably talk. 3 man dev team so i imagine its 90% talk.

[tank130]

Is any of this, or the design stuff for the vehicles even gonna get done at all?

Yes. We have an RGD coder committed to doing the work, we just need to tell him what to do. I have decided to try and get community input in regards to balance. If it becomes a gong show in the balance forum, then production will stop.

In other words, posts like the previous two will result in nothing getting done. I do not have the patience to deal with bone heads who want to act like morons.

So ya, if you guys want to see production, then keep it productive  please

This thread is about the topic, if you have something else to discuss, start another thread please.

[EIRRMod]

Yeah I know, one post per person and this isn't about the TA/SP directly, but it is very much related.

Is any of this, or the design stuff for the vehicles even gonna get done at all? Balance Lead and mysteryman102947 are both AWOL and no patch has been seen or heard from for 4 months.

We can all throw around our nice and neat and batshit crazy and plain stupid ideas all we want, but it's moot if nobody is on the job.

Is there anyone who is ready to step up to it, or are we just throwing around talk for the sake of it?

Well, thats kind of why we're throwing it out to you guys.  We have the coding power, but lack people with TIME to do balancing tasks.

We want to get a patch out soon, but to be blunt, Im not sure WHAT to patch - which is why this thread even exists
Does that make sense?

[XIIcorps]

We want to get a patch out soon, but to be blunt, Im not sure WHAT to patch - which is why this thread even exists
Does that make sense?

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=28413.msg488733#msg488733

That thread would be a good start on what to patch, then we'll go from there.

one thing ive noticed is the SP/TA and Tiger/Pershing being balanced against each other.

Whats the thoughts on this ?

Should we diverge away from this ?

[EIRRMod]

I think I misrepresented what I meant - I mean we're using this thread, and other previous threads to form some stuff for the patch.

[Hicks58]

More importantly, we've had the minor off-topic in this thread, it should go back to the TA/SP and it's original thread format of one post per person.

If you want direction in other areas, be it specific or general, get some other threads up EiRRMod.

[omgNiko]

.

[rolcsika0128]

Without the intention of offending anyone, all I see is that the vast majority of players who are complaining / making "balance suggestions" about SP/TA DO NOT EVEN USE THEM (except for hicks). This is problematic, because their attitude / view is highly biased and one-sided. If you played them, you'd know they aren't as op as you are trying to make them look like. Only by playing a unit / faction will you realize its weaknesses, and after you did you can easily use it to your advantage.

I'd support Hicks' suggestion by reducing accuracy to 0.75. This would be a good first step. But PLEASE , for fuck's sake, do not play the "eir style hilariously overnerf something into the oblivion" card again.... lets take slow and steady steps to gradually balance this game finally.

[omgNiko]

.

[tank130]

Keep it about balance please.

We do not need lessons on countering or company builds: Just the facts please.

[nikomas]

The SP/TACE are to strong because they're so damn survivable compared to other "Super" Class tanks. It's the same problem we ran into when the KT speed was buffed, it got fast enough to escape trouble and keep pace with counters, leading to the firepower and durability becoming massively exaggerated instead of compensation for brick-speed.

Imho, the SP/TACE have the same issue, I'd honestly like to see...

A. Their durability and speed kicked down to, or below standard Persh levels (that thing was heavy). They've got awesome abilities and firepower advantages, I really don't see the justification for the speed and durability advantages at this point, beyond making them "l33t" that is.
Or.
B. Specialize them more, in the case of the SP I'd rather see it more geared towards destroying tanks instead of being a Jack, Tace I'm not entirely sure what do do with given how it's the Jack of all Jacks.

Either way, they're way to good at just about everything but fighting absolute, top tier hardcounters (and can do that to given the right moments).