Main line infantry

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[Scotzmen]

How do people feel about the current mainline infantry.  I'm on about these units:

Rifleman
Infantry section
Grenadiers
Panzer Grenadiers

I'm not interest in doctrine buffs they get etc. Just at thier most basic and with thier various upgrades they may get. Do they preform their  job or could they do with a push in the right direction with a few changes?

What if they were to receive an offensive and a defensive weapon upgrade as basic without doctrines. And then with doctrines more specialised packages. For example:

Brens for defense and stens for offense? And the rca gave them scopes.


I'm also interested in hearing if any of the upgrades main line infantry could use a change. Are one or two of the weapon packages no performing to a set level?

[XIIcorps]

Brens are pretty bogus without LT buff.

BARs are expensive for such a squishy unit, maybe a 10mu decrease.

GRens are pretty well fine, nades shcrecks mg snd medkits as standard for only 280mp drive away

Pgrens are the strongest mainline inf and have great synergy between G43s and inc nades.

[Hicks58]

Tommies and Grenadiers are golden where they are.

Riflemen have a half a thread's worth of discussion where I've put my two pence.

PzGrens are fairly good so long as the G43 suppression is finally sorted out.

[TheArea]

Just curious, but what about volks?

They seem pretty crappy even with mp44, and typically lose to anything. If I'm not terror I only use for recrew, they are a big engineer squad in my estimation.

I'm not asking for a buff, just suggesting that  we shouldn't forget about them.

[XIIcorps]

Just curious, but what about volks?

They seem pretty crappy even with mp44, and typically lose to anything. If I'm not terror I only use for recrew, they are a big engineer squad in my estimation.

I'm not asking for a buff, just suggesting that  we shouldn't forget about them.

Volks have always been in the same boat as rifles, cheap fodder/recrew.

Even with MP40s, given the piss poor FOTM acc they cannot chase units down effectivley.
Fausts with their 35 range and long wind up are terrifically easy to roll back out of, unless you spend another 20mu for slow mines and have the fortune of the enemy vehicle rolling over it.

[tank130]

I actually have to agree with Area on that one. I often wander what the actual role of Volks is supposed to be.
I thought Volks & rifleman were supposed to be somewhat on the same level in regards to Mainline infantry.

I have not played vCoH since coming to this mod, so please don't lash me if this is a dumbass question. But were Grens not an upgrade or doctrine call in vCoH?

If that is correct shouldn't we be loosely balancing along these lines:

Rifleman = Volks
Rangers / AB = Grenadiers

Or perhaps KCH is supposed = Rangers / AB and grenadiers are just sorta whatever?

[Mister Schmidt]

No, Grenadiers came from a separate building, you could still field both Volks & Grens concurrently.

In-game, Volks, were classed as Light Infantry, & Grenadiers as Heavy Infantry.

Volks being cheap and spammable, yet still a threat with MP40's & Panzerfausts, whereas Grens you could specialize in either AT or AI when you had the munitions.

US never had an equivalent, just had better upgrades for Riflemen.

You are right Tank thoug in that Volks & Riflemen are roughly equivalent, Rifles win at close range and Volks win at long range, your standard vCoH values still apply there, but Rifles outscale Volks when upgraded with grenades & BAR's; Volks do not have an equivalent, that is the purpse of Grenadiers.

Edit: My knowledge is also years old so feel free to correct me

[nikomas]

Pretty much correct, however I do think that after volks recieved their combat sprint ability that the MP40's are worth it. With the right doctrine combination and careful use anyway. Pretty much the same way one made greasegun riflemen work.

Keep in mind, the MP40 is one of the best SMG's in the game, oddly enough.

[skaffa]

In vcoh its like this.

Volks + mg42 fight vs rifles. Like 3 volks 2 mgs, vs 4 rifles. The volks win long range fight, rifles try to get close asap which is where they win. Rifles deal with mg42 by flanking them. So basically this means that WM guy has 3 volks and 2 mgs in a group close to eachother, protected eachother. Whereas the US guy has like 4 rifles spread out, hiding in Fog of war, getting ready to attack the axis position from as many angles as he can, to avoid getting caught in MG fire. WM guys wins battle if he holds ground and makes US guy retreat to base. US guy wins if he manages to flank, get close and make the entire defensive position crumble and force them to retreat.
So volks = rifles.

Then you spend fuel to tech up to t2 and get GRENADIERS. These guys rape the regular rifles hardcore. US has to spend fuel also and get BARs to compete with these grens. (or snipers or LVs)
So you could say that gren = rifle with bars.
So if u think outside of box u could say make BAR cost manpower so gren n rifle with bar are same cost. 

[Hicks58]

Though funnily enough, a Rifleman squad will win vs a Grenadier squad at close range.

It's not something noticed as often though, considering a Grenadier squad will cut down a third of your squad at least before it gets there. It's usually transport, inattention, flanking between buildings/hedges etc that typically get a Rifleman squad to get the jump on a Grenadier squad.

As for Volks, they do have the long range/short range thing going on with Riflemen, but Volks are inherently a utility option (Cap, crew, cheap assault, etc) whereas Grenadiers are your straight up combat option. Riflemen have to fill both roles unless you go Ranger or AB heavy. Armour of course, has zip. Saying that though, Armour in vCoH had a lot of options to make their LV's/tanks go the extra mile via much faster production, allied war machine, on board repairs, having much more spare MP to use since it aint being used on Rangers/AB, etc. Whereas Armour in EiRR still only has the same level of LV/tank access that AB/Infantry does.

[tank130]

In vcoh its like this.

Volks + mg42 fight vs rifles. Like 3 volks 2 mgs, vs 4 rifles. The volks win long range fight, rifles try to get close asap which is where they win. Rifles deal with mg42 by flanking them. So basically this means that WM guy has 3 volks and 2 mgs in a group close to eachother, protected eachother. Whereas the US guy has like 4 rifles spread out, hiding in Fog of war, getting ready to attack the axis position from as many angles as he can, to avoid getting caught in MG fire. WM guys wins battle if he holds ground and makes US guy retreat to base. US guy wins if he manages to flank, get close and make the entire defensive position crumble and force them to retreat.
So volks = rifles.

Then you spend fuel to tech up to t2 and get GRENADIERS. These guys rape the regular rifles hardcore. US has to spend fuel also and get BARs to compete with these grens. (or snipers or LVs)
So you could say that gren = rifle with bars.
So if u think outside of box u could say make BAR cost manpower so gren n rifle with bar are same cost. 

Awesome explanation - Thank you

[Scotzmen]

So suggestions on what to do with rifleman?

So do we bring rifleman up to the same bar as Tommies, Grens, and Panzer Grens? If so, how?

So if u think outside of box u could say make BAR cost manpower so gren n rifle with bar are same cost.

One or two bars in the squad? And then just pay for the ability to suppress? Sounds good to me.

[aeroblade56]

So suggestions on what to do with rifleman?

So do we bring rifleman up to the same bar as Tommies, Grens, and Panzer Grens? If so, how?


One or two bars in the squad? And then just pay for the ability to suppress? Sounds good to me.

i like that idea.

But i think the main thought here is that in order for bars to be used effectively riflemen need a incredible amount of attention.

But don't bars supress fairly quick without suppression fire?.

[Tachibana]

Manpower Bars cannot possibly be a good idea.

[XIIcorps]

Manpower Bars cannot possibly be a good idea.

it could be if the trade rate for MU to MP was double so bars costing 80mu would cost 160mp,  but that would mean 360mp rifles vs 240 mp grenadiers

[skaffa]

One or two bars in the squad? And then just pay for the ability to suppress? Sounds good to me.

Make BARs cost manpower imo, give them the standard 2 BARs, but without the SF. Make SF purchasable for muni.

Current BARs with SF are 80 muni (some even say its too high).
Id say SF should cost like 35 muni. Deduct that from the 80 muni you are left with 45 muni. Following XIIcorps idea you double that to get the mp cost which would be 90. Regular rifleman is 200 mp, with BARs then 290 mp? 35 muni cost for SF.
Just braingstorming here, feel free to break apart.
But in general for me it makes sense. You get the choice to spam 30 rifles or 20 with more firepower, same as u get choice to spam 30 volks or 25 grens (using 6k mp). Also in vcoh BARs are strictly  manpower upgrade and only pay muni for using the SF. Whereas LMGs, schrecks etc u need to buy for munis.

[XIIcorps]

Make BARs cost manpower imo, give them the standard 2 BARs, but without the SF. Make SF purchasable for muni.

Current BARs with SF are 80 muni (some even say its too high).
Id say SF should cost like 35 muni. Deduct that from the 80 muni you are left with 45 muni. Following XIIcorps idea you double that to get the mp cost which would be 90. Regular rifleman is 200 mp, with BARs then 290 mp? 35 muni cost for SF.
Just braingstorming here, feel free to break apart.
But in general for me it makes sense. You get the choice to spam 30 rifles or 20 with more firepower, same as u get choice to spam 30 volks or 25 grens (using 6k mp). Also in vcoh BARs are strictly  manpower upgrade and only pay muni for using the SF. Whereas LMGs, schrecks etc u need to buy for munis.

His logic is flawless

[Scotzmen]

Somebody want to do the annoying thing of running the DPS that would come from that kind of set up?

[nikomas]

Like a certain tachi said one page earlier, manpower weapon upgrades are not the way to go. For one thing, running bars with some alreayd manpower heavy support companies will be extremly manpower prohibitive. For another, it would let you do some wicked support shinnanigans in infantry coy with all that spare munitions and bars.

Lastly, one munition point is worth roughly four manpower points... Going from 80muni to 90mp is a bargain price, sure you get less rifles overall but value wise you're slashing the price several times over.

Walk carefully, dey waters be muddy what ye be treading.

[PonySlaystation]

BARs are too expensive and should be 75 munitions. MP40 are too expensive for cheap assault infantry and should be 50 or 45 munitions. Panzerfaust should be 35 munitions or have it's wind up time reduced. Single bazooka should be a universal upgrade for all riflemen for 55 munitions.

Riflemen and Volksgrenadiers cannot be cheap infantry alternatives (other than recrew) if their upgrades are so expensive. Volksgrenadiers do not have grenades, they need some relatively cheap upgrade to be useful. Riflemen can be pretty strong with doctrine buffs but trying to run a dedicated company of them is never as effective as getting elite infantry (or more commonly using LV for AI and AB/Rangers for AT), they are squishy and the BAR is too expensive.

Oh and please give Panzer Grenadiers and Tommie Squads regular grenades. It seems only fair. Just regular stick grenades so they can counter buildings and support weapons properly without needing a mortar or sniper.