.rgd weapon balance

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[TheVolskinator]

Just took a look at the RGDs while trying to put together a Soviet faction. Lel, I had a look at the different rifles, and have some to the conclusion that the Garand is pretty trash. Absolutely pathetic mid and long range cooldown--it just does zippo DPS vs. other rifles beyond spitting distance I'd rather give my rifles Lee-Enfields than this garbage. On top of that, KEK, the M1919 LMG is basically worse than the BAR in almost every way.

Alright ladies, input. Any silly statistics you note if you have experience with .rgds?

[AlphaTIG]

how about you back up this post with some numbers?

[GrayWolf]

M1919 is damn weak compared to german one and it costs the same. Also you cannot use 2, which would be somehow good for it. I always thought that M1919 had the best suppression out of all LMGs. That would make it very very good.


Since it's not in balance forums yet... *runs away*.

[aeroblade56]

Dont the garands jave pwetty good coldown at close range?. rifleman areade to die cap and recrew.


 As for the m19 if u give two they are op remember 2xlmg rangers with. 15 kills all over the place.

But they were never balanced just hardcaped

[TheIcelandicManiac]

I feel like im being led into a trap
The first one is the basic DPS of the weapon, The second is the Target table of the specific weapon vs the specific type of armour.

Damadge is 12 on the LEe
# cw_lee_enfield.rgd
  | Zaxis S DPS = 3.57
  | Zaxis M DPS = 2.41
  | Zaxis L DPS = 1.54
  |  Infantry armour  = 12
  |  Airborne armour  = 9
  |  Heroic armour  = 9
  |  Elite armour  = 9
  |  Sniper armour  = 12
Vs Soldier armour the lee has 0.75

The damadge is 7 on the carbine
# m1_carbine.rgd
  | Zaxis S DPS = 3.24
  | Zaxis M DPS = 1.71
  | Zaxis L DPS = 0.51
  |  Infantry armour  = 7
  |  Airborne armour  = 5.25
  |  Heroic armour  = 5.25
  |  Elite armour  = 5.25
  |  Sniper armour  = 7
Vs Soldier armour the Garand has 0.75

The damadge is 10 on the Garand
# m1_garand_rifle.rgd
  | Zaxis S DPS = 4.23
  | Zaxis M DPS = 1.79
  | Zaxis L DPS = 0.76
  |  Infantry armour  = 10
  |  Airborne armour  = 7.5
  |  Heroic armour  = 7.5
  |  Elite armour  = 7.5
  |  Sniper armour  = 10
Against soldier armour the Garand has 0.6

Aside fromt he carbine sucking as allways i the garand is pretty much balanced in tearms of cooldown and overall DPS, the garand is good where it comes to close range while the Lee is good at long and medium, they all have their jobs and aside from the carbine, they both do their jobs well.

Herpderp, Forgot to add Soldier armour to the Macro.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Code:

function each_file(rgd)
    if rgd.GameData.weapon_bag then
        local weapon = rgd.GameData.weapon_bag
        
        local damage = (weapon.damage.min+weapon.damage.max)/2
        local reloadFrequency = (weapon.reload.frequency.max+weapon.reload.frequency.min)/2
        local reloadDuration = (weapon.reload.duration.max+weapon.reload.duration.min)/2+weapon.fire.wind_up+weapon.fire.wind_down
        local cooldownShort = (weapon.cooldown.duration.max+weapon.cooldown.duration.min)/2*weapon.cooldown.duration_multiplier.short
        local cooldownMedium = (weapon.cooldown.duration.max+weapon.cooldown.duration.min)/2*weapon.cooldown.duration_multiplier.medium
        local cooldownLong = (weapon.cooldown.duration.max+weapon.cooldown.duration.min)/2*weapon.cooldown.duration_multiplier.long
        local fireAimTimeShort = (weapon.aim.fire_aim_time.max+weapon.aim.fire_aim_time.min)/2*weapon.aim.fire_aim_time_multiplier.short
        local fireAimTimeMedium = (weapon.aim.fire_aim_time.max+weapon.aim.fire_aim_time.min)/2*weapon.aim.fire_aim_time_multiplier.medium
        local fireAimTimeLong = (weapon.aim.fire_aim_time.max+weapon.aim.fire_aim_time.min)/2*weapon.aim.fire_aim_time_multiplier.long
        local readyAimTime = (weapon.aim.ready_aim_time.max+weapon.aim.ready_aim_time.min)/2
        local WindUpWindDown = weapon.fire.wind_up+weapon.fire.wind_down
        local ZaxisDPSShort
        local ZaxisDPSMedium
        local ZaxisDPSLong
		
        if weapon.burst.can_burst == true then
            local burstDuration = (weapon.burst.duration.max+weapon.burst.duration.min)/2
            local rateOfFire = (weapon.burst.rate_of_fire.max+weapon.burst.rate_of_fire.min)/2

            ZaxisDPSShort = (rateOfFire * burstDuration * (reloadFrequency + 1) * weapon.accuracy.short * damage) / (readyAimTime + (fireAimTimeShort + cooldownShort + WindUpWindDown) * reloadFrequency + reloadDuration + burstDuration * (reloadFrequency + 1))
            ZaxisDPSMedium = (rateOfFire * burstDuration * (reloadFrequency + 1) * weapon.accuracy.medium * damage) / (readyAimTime + (fireAimTimeMedium + cooldownMedium + WindUpWindDown) * reloadFrequency + reloadDuration + burstDuration * (reloadFrequency + 1))
            ZaxisDPSLong = (rateOfFire * burstDuration * (reloadFrequency + 1) * weapon.accuracy.long * damage) / (readyAimTime + (fireAimTimeLong + cooldownLong + WindUpWindDown) * reloadFrequency + reloadDuration + burstDuration * (reloadFrequency + 1))
        else
            ZaxisDPSShort = ((reloadFrequency + 1) * weapon.accuracy.short * damage) / (readyAimTime + (fireAimTimeShort + cooldownShort + WindUpWindDown) * reloadFrequency + reloadDuration)
            ZaxisDPSMedium = ((reloadFrequency + 1) * weapon.accuracy.medium * damage) / (readyAimTime + (fireAimTimeMedium + cooldownMedium + WindUpWindDown) * reloadFrequency + reloadDuration)
            ZaxisDPSLong = ((reloadFrequency + 1) * weapon.accuracy.long * damage) / (readyAimTime + (fireAimTimeLong + cooldownLong + WindUpWindDown) * reloadFrequency + reloadDuration)
        end

        print("# "..rgd.name.."")
        print("  | Zaxis S DPS = "..(math.floor(ZaxisDPSShort*100+0.005)/100))
        print("  | Zaxis M DPS = "..(math.floor(ZaxisDPSMedium*100+0.005)/100))
        print("  | Zaxis L DPS = "..(math.floor(ZaxisDPSLong*100+0.005)/100))
        print("")
    end
end

It does, This is the one Leo made.

Its just a part of the macro, what i could have done was also just write
Garand
 |  Infantry armour  = 1
  |  Airborne armour  = 0.75
  |  Heroic armour  = 0.75
  |  Elite armour  = 0.75
  |  Sniper armour  = 1

What the Macro did is just that it takes the total damadge of the weapon DPS, Divides it by accuracy/Recived Damadge and then poops out a DPS Vs the specifiv armour at Close/Medium/long

That was the easiest way as if you made the macro too long it just crashes corsix or takes about 12 minutes to compute.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Sry, Its the recived damadge value.
Not the recived damadge/accuracy value.

[GrayWolf]

The M1919 is better at medium-long range while the German one is better at short range.

Yes, it's SLIGHTLY better, but when you compare it on short range it's far more effective (German LMG). The deal is that it's weaker imo, because German weapons are mostly for Mid-long while Allied ones are for close (especially ami).
That's why German LMG shines while the American one is shit.

Stats are one thing, but the actual gameplay is the other.

[Tachibana]

2 questions, genuine interest.

How did you calculate mag duration and do your final dps figures account for the number of weapons on upgrade(2bar vs 1lmg)?

[GrayWolf]

3.147850732 Short and 7.014736842 Medium DPS is only SLIGHTLY better than 1.88304721 Short and 5 Medium DPS, but 16.6735282 Long DPS is far more effective than 16.19572262 Long DPS? Are you retarded? You just said that 1.264803522 and 2.014736842 are smaller than 0.47780558...

Well, it says that that short DPS is 22,sth.


Anyway, my argument is that Ami infantry cannot fight on mid-long while axis can. That what makes these 2 LMGs so god damn different. I don't see much Ranger LMG, just Thompsons and/or zooks, maybe because of that.

[GrayWolf]

Well tbh I think that the German one gets better buffs and is more reliable. DPS isn't all you need for a good weapon. What's with suppresion? Also the buffs for Grens and their LMG are far better than M1919 ones, so that's probably you don't want to mess with doctrines

Incremental suppresion and fatherland defense. Or elite armor grens surviving tank shots. That's so lol for German LMGs.

And yet the best LMG squad is support grens in PE HT. Suppressing infantry like no tommorow haha.

[GrayWolf]

Anyway, what does reliability have to do with it? Certain weapons don't suddenly go crazy with their rolls more often than others do silly. I guess you mean reliabilty in performing as usual despite what armour the unit faces, but then they both have the same reliability / unreliabilty when thinking about what armour types / situations they would face.

That's not theory crafting, but.

1st of all like you said German LMG does have better suppression (not to mention defensive t2 with even more ACC which means more DPS). It gives the biggest advantage for AI weapons, because it makes infantry slow tortoises and later on pinned (useless).

Look, if it's vanilla LMG, that's okay, but you just don't go for vanilla LMGs. It's better to spend money on HMG or mortar (HMG for suppression and mortar for finishing off). However, when you use Defensive doctrine, you really have to go for them, even spam if you can, they're sooo good. I feel like 2 of them can suppress in few seconds (go back to point 1.) and even if infantry has fireup (brits lost it not that recently), it's used just to move back in 90% of situations.

OK, OK, that was doctrine talk huh? Probably yes, but like you said even vanilla LMG has better suppression, so my point stands still. I think that it's better to suppress a squad instead of killing one more man. Just saying. But ofc there's cover so my point can be neglected easily, that's okay.

And about the HP argument u made: point is that you pay 6 pop instead of 5. That's a big difference in EIR. Your argument about HP is good, but that's 6 pop and it can make difficult for allied player to go for extra LMG.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, you said sth like M1919s let allies fight on long-medium range, but isn't long-medium still better for grens? I mean gren rifles are better than garands on long range by lots. And that's my point.
While Germans can fire on long with better efficency, because they also have gren rifles, not garands.

M1919 is cool on long, but garands aren't which makes 5/6 of the squad kinda... useless?


Well if you look at marines, they pretty much rape, because I feel like they have gren rifles or sth.

[aeroblade56]

Don't forget m19 is also a t3 unlock.

[GrayWolf]

Don't forget m19 is also a t3 unlock.

+1

[GrayWolf]

I don't think any of you can read properly...

I would like to add that you know about the effects that yellow and green cover have on suppression and the fact that an LMG Ranger is most likely to be sitting behind cover and shooting at you instead of trying to push up close. Also they've probably popped smoke too, but eh, that's theory crafting, you should already think about scenario's like that in your own head.

But ofc there's cover so my point can be neglected easily, that's okay.

Just Alpha things.

[aeroblade56]

The wall of text is really killing the thread no wonder why it's so difficult to read anything.

The question is are the m19 worth the tier unlocks a tier 3 and tier 1.

Are they going to be worth the fairly big drain on unlock points?. The lmg could be fine and all we really need to do is make it the same unlock as ranger.

[GrayWolf]

Are they going to be worth the fairly big drain on unlock points?. The lmg could be fine and all we really need to do is make it the same unlock as ranger.

This is a good idea.


And Alpha. Instead of posting all this stuff on the forums you should play. If you're saying that suppression isn't that good, because you can go to cover, then well, FF isn't good, because it doesn't fight infantry well.

I just made this arguement, because I knew that you'll post something as stupid as that.
Most of the infantry has to move and is not always in heavy cover or I would say it's not in 10% of the time on the battlefield. HMG wouldn't have any use if it was somehow different.

I just wanted to say that 2xLMG can easily suppress advancing infantry just before it will get close. If it has any buffs it can be even better.
Suppression makes infantry useless in most cases and I can sacrifice some DPS for it.

[AlphaTIG]

Just Gray things

i hav read the complete thread and even though alpha told you (gary) why what you said is bullshit, you kept posting theoretical in battle
scenarios trying to prove her wrong, often completely ignoring the facts.

so since noone wants to read all your spam, here are the facts from the thread (i hope i didnt miss any).

-m19 has better overall surpression than bar
-the m19 performs better at long/med range than the lmg 42
-rangers with m19 will most likely win a cq fight against grens with lmg 42 even though the lmg 42 deal slightly more damage in cq

[GrayWolf]

The deal is that there's more targets than grens and rangers you know. Comparing weapons and saying Gren vs Ranger, ranger win is a bit... I don't know... stupid? Also delete the picture as fast as u can, cause rulz.

Also I wasn't saying anything about BARs. I also said that German LMG is only better at short, but has better suppression. I don't know metz, maybe read my posts, dunno.

Or I can make it easier for you. I find LMGs better, because they have better suppression and most of the allied infantry is suppressed before it can engage (come closer).

Or wait, I can just quote it :

I just wanted to say that 2xLMG can easily suppress advancing infantry just before it will get close. If it has any buffs it can be even better.
Suppression makes infantry useless in most cases and I can sacrifice some DPS for it.

For me it's weird and strange that ami LMG has more punch, but less suppression. Since most of the ami infantry has to get close, shouldn't it be suppress and finish off (like BARs)?
What's funnier, is that on t2 you have bonus damage against suppressed targets so it would be cooler if this M1919 has a bit more suppression (instead of thompsons). Since it's t3 unlock it could be a bit better in DPS and the same suppression as the german counterpart since and you need t1 unlock too.

I think there must be reason why none of the players use the M1919. Maybe it's not that good for allies, hmmm?

I'll leave the topic now, I suggested what I wanted.

[aeroblade56]

Nah the Rangers would win at all ranges cos the Grens are fighting against elite armour. Anyway, that's not the point and isn't exactly useful information, hence why I compared them against Infantry armour.

I was saying that it isn't as good as you were making it out to be, I never said it wasn't good, and I didn't say that you can just use cover, I was trying to point out the flaws in every single narrow comment you make by replying in kind, heck I even stated at those points that I was replying in kind to your narrow views because they are the only things you seem to understand.

... You are such a retard, even now you ignore massive holes.

1) Correct, what was meant to be just a posting of stats to help the original thread posters devolved into a Gray balance thread.

2) No, the M1919 isn't really worth both the unlocks. Looking at the Infantry doctrine the Rangers get some great buffs for using the playstyle of the M1919; however you have to take so many unlocks for it like like smoke and field dressings.

 I'm pretty sure you started blogging in the page before Garry.