Medium Tanks

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[Scotzmen]

Simple Question. Has dropping repair costs and upgrades improved viability of medium tanks on the field?

[Shabtajus]

Or maybe give medium tanks cool abilities via veterancy? Like mark target/smoke/tank shock/stun rounds and stuff like that. It will create more oportunities for different strategies which is always nice thing

[TheVolskinator]

I'm working on that new fangled 'new vet' stuff right now; this might help. Soon(tm).

[tank130]

Or maybe give medium tanks cool abilities via veterancy? Like mark target/smoke/tank shock/stun rounds and stuff like that. It will create more oportunities for different strategies which is always nice thing

I have preached that for years. I applaud you for thinking outside the box: I truly mean that.

Most people just say make it stronger or make it cheaper when trying to balance units or make them more useful. Great to see some creative thinking Shab.

[aeroblade56]

Here is what you run into.

I think its cool and all to get abilities on tanks but if that h appens we might have to go through another redesign for doctrines.

No one wants a 25% accuracyu P4 running around with mark target.

Or a AC with sherman smoke and mobile repairs.

OMG mod has given p4 IST the stun round its is stupid as all hell.

a AI tank thats cheap destroys infantry and it can somehow stop a tank dead in its tracks?. 

[Tachibana]

We all know volsk can get super excited with his ideas. He is probably the most creative guy around though and the only one who can come up with the ideas in the scope required for a full veterancy overhaul. We can always take a look though and point out things like that. It is not like we are going to be adding vet abilities unilaterally. I would think we would have a looks at that kind of stuff before hand.

Alternatively, just ask shab which abilities he thinks are cool. Those are probably the OP ones and we axe them. =p

[Shabtajus]

How cool was having vet4 rifles get a sprint? You could lolo sprint into tank and sticky bomb it. It would be a bit of OP shit isn't? But thats the point of whole idea giving stuff to units via veterancy they can't get. Eirr is all about veterancy and keeping your shit alive for next day. It's just random idea. But hell ideas like that would make game epic. Who fucking cares about those +25% recieved damage or stuff like that? Eirr was winning players over other mods because of doctrines and different game play style. So why you need invent wheel once again since you have a recept of succefull game? Fuck  wheel tbh give us 24 inch rims for epic battles

[XIIcorps]

Yeh I gotta say fundamentally EIR will never achieve balance, not even Vcoh could.

Perhaps we should just try and revert to Airburst mortar days or unlimited sprint pgrens

[Walkin]

Abilities tend to change a unit's function and capabilities, or radically improve their performance in some regard. Unlocking abilities for free through vet is a bad idea; always was and always will be.

Medium tanks are the armored workhorse of any company. They should, by default, have more abilities/unlocks available to them, so as to be more highly customizable, and fulfill a wider variety of battlefield roles. Right now, all medium armor is good for is dealing damage, but there are simply better, more reliable, and more cost-effective ways of dealing that damage available to any player by default, so medium armor rarely gets taken.

[tank130]

Abilities tend to change a unit's function and capabilities, or radically improve their performance in some regard. Unlocking abilities for free through vet is a bad idea; always was and always will be.

Disagree to a point. Before you can make such a wide spread judgement, you would need to look at what the proposed changes to the function and capabilities are.

Earning an increase to your units abilities by using skill and good game play does not seem like a bad idea in a mod that was intended to promote persistence. Continuing an attitude from 6 years ago because of nostalgia seems like a bad idea 

[Walkin]

Disagree to a point. Before you can make such a wide spread judgement, you would need to look at what the proposed changes to the function and capabilities are.

Earning an increase to your units abilities by using skill and good game play does not seem like a bad idea in a mod that was intended to promote persistence. Continuing an attitude from 6 years ago because of nostalgia seems like a bad idea 

Any ability that's worth implementing should be available to all players by default. Period. I don't even need to know what those abilities are to tell you that, it's just poor game design to gate worthwhile features behind some kind of XP grind.

"We designed this really cool ability that will make this unit more versatile and interesting, and make this mod overall more fun to play. Instead of giving all players access to this potentially game-changing ability, we're going to hide it behind an XP grind. If you feel you shouldn't have to grind XP to get access to these abilities, fuck you. If preserving units does not fit your playstyle, fuck you. If grinding XP does not interest you, fuck you. Only the folks I deem worthy get to have fun with these gameplay features."

EiR has never been very newbie friendly, and we've always had a very hard time with veteran players having unfair advantages. Further gating of gameplay features behind arbitrary XP requirements will only exacerbate the problem, both in terms of actual player vs player balance, and in terms of alienating new players, providing a worthwhile gaming experience, ensuring the mod is equally fun for all players, etc.

Instead of jerking ourselves off over secondary gameplay features (in this case, Veterancy), let's instead focus our energy on creating a solid core of gameplay, with vanilla units available to all players.

[tank130]

It's a persistence mod - did you miss that part?

[Tachibana]

Have some faith carrot. We'll try to make sure we don't give abilities at vet4/5 that lead to cromwell's solo'ing tigers and Ostwinds penerating sherman armour.

As tank has said, It is a persistence mod. There needs to be some reward for getting higher leveled.

There is practical advantage as well. It is easier to foresee the effects of an ability(imo) than predicting what stacking vet buffs (-40% pen super pershing anyone?) combined with doctrine buffs(elite crits, ablative, mobile repairs) does. There are simply too many combos to be able to see everything. With abilities, it is easier to balance in isolation.

[aeroblade56]

We got so many things that hunt vet its pretty silly imo.

thats why we never see above a vet2 sherman or p4 or stug.

to easy to hunt these units. i would like to see survive ability of these units go up via vet rather than killing power increase.

it is 0 fun getting a vet 4 tank just for it to die to m10 rush or a upgun puma zerg same with bullshit HT accuracy for schreks.

would be nice to see increased HP and stuff.

[XIIcorps]

We got so many things that hunt vet its pretty silly imo.

thats why we never see above a vet2 sherman or p4 or stug.

to easy to hunt these units. i would like to see survive ability of these units go up via vet rather than killing power increase.

it is 0 fun getting a vet 4 tank just for it to die to m10 rush or a upgun puma zerg same with bullshit HT accuracy for schreks.

would be nice to see increased HP and stuff.

for me, I'd like to see vet requirements brought down across the board and change other stats with vet, like rof, speed , rotation and acc
Things that you would actually get better at with experience not this -25% pen shit that makes units invincible when it compounds with other pen buffs and moving shooting repairs.

We need a way to create empathy for units with the player, so they are less likely to Zerg rush their 2 M10s at that tiger and pak knowing that they stand a chance to out dps it.

I feel that's what EIR has lost, the connection between player and company

[Shabtajus]

Any ability that's worth implementing should be available to all players by default. Period. I don't even need to know what those abilities are to tell you that, it's just poor game design to gate worthwhile features behind some kind of XP grind.

"We designed this really cool ability that will make this unit more versatile and interesting, and make this mod overall more fun to play. Instead of giving all players access to this potentially game-changing ability, we're going to hide it behind an XP grind. If you feel you shouldn't have to grind XP to get access to these abilities, fuck you. If preserving units does not fit your playstyle, fuck you. If grinding XP does not interest you, fuck you. Only the folks I deem worthy get to have fun with these gameplay features."

EiR has never been very newbie friendly, and we've always had a very hard time with veteran players having unfair advantages. Further gating of gameplay features behind arbitrary XP requirements will only exacerbate the problem, both in terms of actual player vs player balance, and in terms of alienating new players, providing a worthwhile gaming experience, ensuring the mod is equally fun for all players, etc.

Instead of jerking ourselves off over secondary gameplay features (in this case, Veterancy), let's instead focus our energy on creating a solid core of gameplay, with vanilla units available to all players.

I feel like you are little bit over reacting Carrot. Yes, it's slightly unfair that players who play more will get advantage over so called "newbies". But look at that like i do. What's the point playing game after game and not gain some cool stuff which will motivate you come back for another one game just to push a little bit further and see what else is possible? The whole idea is keep players playing isn't?

Correct me if i am wrong but according to you we should get rid of XP grinding. So basically it will be like CO:H just without resources capping bullshit. Everyone will be forced buy extra abilities for units using muni, fuel, mp isn't? It will lead to less units in your company which is no fun at all cuz it will shorten a game time from 45-60minutes to what? 25-35minutes? Than having weak vet units will kill interest of veting up shit since you get no reward for it. I love vet hunting or keeping my own vet from being hunted so much so as the most players. It's part of the game which gives you emotions. Why mak them go away?

We got so many things that hunt vet its pretty silly imo.

thats why we never see above a vet2 sherman or p4 or stug.

to easy to hunt these units. i would like to see survive ability of these units go up via vet rather than killing power increase.

it is 0 fun getting a vet 4 tank just for it to die to m10 rush or a upgun puma zerg same with bullshit HT accuracy for schreks.

would be nice to see increased HP and stuff.

I dissagree with you tbh. Why you need a stronghold which is fucking hard to kill? Remember MAUS or SP at vet5. It was freaking hard to kill them because they had tremendous defensive buffs (less penetration and stuff like that). I think it's way better idea give killing power. Logic is simple behind my suggestion. Go hard or go home. If you suck at keeping you units alive or you lack of supporting them it's your own fault. Don't cover your shitty micro with buffs. Saying "you" i mean all the players who cry for a certain buff to cover holes in fail micro they have. It's not personal atack vs you  

[aeroblade56]

I dissagree with you tbh. Why you need a stronghold which is fucking hard to kill? Remember MAUS or SP at vet5. It was freaking hard to kill them because they had tremendous defensive buffs (less penetration and stuff like that). I think it's way better idea give killing power. Logic is simple behind my suggestion. Go hard or go home. If you suck at keeping you units alive or you lack of supporting them it's your own fault. Don't cover your shitty micro with buffs. Saying "you" i mean all the players who cry for a certain buff to cover holes in fail micro they have. It's not personal atack vs you  

it levels the playing field for new players increasing a tank survive ability via vet so even though a vet 5 will beat you on a 1v1 because it has more defensive buffs its not going to go around nuking everything in sight.

we also know that generally american tanks are weaker than the axis ones and it would be silly to boost the Wehrmacht killing power vs them.

the maus was OP because it had a fuck ton of HP, a massive gun with hilarous range and great doctrines backing it up. without the defensive buffs the maus got(pretty sure it got penetration increase at vet 4)  it would still be the same op shit it used to be.

[TheVolskinator]

Preliminary Sherman vet/changes:

The Shermans:
-Split into three distinct, separate variants, the M4A3 (detailed directly below), the M4A3(75)W (our current Sherman w. no changes other than the removal of the 76 mm upgun), and the M4A3(76)W (Sherman w. the upgun pre-applied; new model for sexiness).
-The M4A3E8 will also be made available to the Armor doctrine.

Medium Tank, M4A3
-Sherman w. HP reduced from 636 to 525 (25 less than the Firefly)
-Top speed reduced from 5.2 to 5 (equal to the Panzer IV)
-Has vehicle crits (this includes the annoying mortar engine damage shenanigans)
-Cost reduced to 325 MP, 190 FU
-Possibility to mount the M1A1(C) 76 mm Gun removed
-Upgrades limited to Dozer Blade (20 FU), .50 cal (40 MU), and Medium Repair Kit (40 MU)

-Vet 1 (24 XP) - Acceleration/deceleration 1.1, Defensive Smoke unlocked
-Vet 2 (48 XP) - Damage 1.75 (M2HB .50 cal only), hull MG gains M1919 LMG stats
-Vet 3 (96 XP) - Reload 0.85, acc. 1.1, gains M89 White Phosphorous shells (toggle; spawns mortar smoke cloud, inc. nade. DoT)
-Vet 4 (192 XP) - Weapon scatter 0.8, co-axial MG gains M1919 LMG stats
-Vet 5 (384 XP) - Rec. dmg. 0.9, damage 1.2, tank will repair itself (1 HP/s) if not in combat, and if stationary for at least 30 s. If moved/attacked, repairs cease.

Medium Tank, M4A3(75)W
-Vet 1 (24 XP) - Top speed, acceleration, and deceleration 1.1, Defensive Smoke unlocked
-Vet 2 (48 XP) - Damage 1.75 (M2HB .50 cal only), hull and co-axial MGs gain M1919 LMG stats
-Vet 3 (96 XP) - Reload 0.85, acc. 1.1, gains M89 White Phosphorous shells (toggle; spawns mortar smoke cloud, inc. nade. DoT)
-Vet 4 (192 XP) - Rec. dmg. 0.9, weapon scatter 0.8
-Vet 5 (384 XP) - Rec. dmg. 0.9, damage 1.2, tank will repair itself (1 HP/s) if not in combat, and if stationary for at least 30 s. If moved/attacked, repairs cease.

Changes involved:
-76 mm upgun removed

Medium Tank, M4A3(76)W
-Vet 1 (24 XP) - Top speed, acceleration, and deceleration 1.1, Defensive Smoke unlocked
-Vet 2 (48 XP) - Penetration 1.2, hull MG gains M1919 LMG stats
-Vet 3 (96 XP) - Reload 0.85, acc. 1.1, gains M89 White Phosphorous shells (toggle; spawns mortar smoke cloud, inc. nade. DoT)
-Vet 4 (192 XP) - Rec. dmg. 0.9, weapon scatter 0.7
-Vet 5 (384 XP) - Rec. dmg. 0.9, damage 1.2, tank will repair itself (1 HP/s) if not in combat, and if stationary for at least 30 s. If moved/attacked, repairs cease.

Medium Tank, M4A3(76)W HVSS (aka M4A3E8)
-No movement penalties when moving through light or heavy cover

-Vet 1 (24 XP) - Top speed 1.2, acceleration/deceleration 1.1, Defensive Smoke unlocked
-Vet 2 (48 XP) - Penetration 1.2, hull MG gains M1919 LMG stats
-Vet 3 (96 XP) - Reload 0.85, acc. 1.1, gains M89 White Phosphorous shells (toggle; spawns mortar smoke cloud, inc. nade. DoT)
-Vet 4 (192 XP) - Rec. pen. 0.9, weapon scatter 0.7
-Vet 5 (384 XP) - Rec. dmg. 0.9, damage 1.2, tank will repair itself (1 HP/s) if not in combat, and if stationary for at least 30 s. If moved/attacked, repairs cease.

Lack of defensive buffs is going to be a Sherman thing, the 75s will become lethal vs. infantry, and the upguns will be fairly mobile tank hunters with their penetration buffs. The German tanks will probably be tanky (w. vet, defensive buffs) but won't really improve firepower wise. Thoughts?

[Tachibana]

Not commenting on balance, just general design.

1.) Bread and butter abilities (ie. defensive smoke/lockdown/overdrive) should be available from the get go, not tied to veterancy. Even if its only vet 1.

2.) Bonus abilities should come at vet4/5, not earlier. Buff them accordingly if you do not think they are worth vet 4/5. In case of white phos for example, you can either add something like a slow effect to the smoke or give it IST flame round DoT rather than inc.nade DoT.