Hotchkiss Stuka

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[EliteGren]

Not sure if this is a leftover from the "making PE more like Wehr" times, but whats with removing the main gun on this? It was one of the things that made it unique and now it's just pretty much.. the Wehrmacht stuka. The only artillery unit with a main gun and we feel the need to change it like all other ones work when it was designed to be unique. This move torwards sameness is painful

[aeroblade56]

Not sure if this is a leftover from the "making PE more like Wehr" times, but whats with removing the main gun on this? It was one of the things that made it unique and now it's just pretty much.. the Wehrmacht stuka. The only artillery unit with a main gun and we feel the need to change it like all other ones work when it was designed to be unique. This move torwards sameness is painful

If you could just make a mega thread and please just make a single post so i don't have to fly over the forums that would be excellent

[EliteGren]

If you could just make a mega thread and please just make a single post so i don't have to fly over the forums that would be excellent

ill do that next time, but those things were it for now. it appears tank does not approve of multiple threads, I'm sure he wouldnt have done that post If I made a mega thread instead, but cant change it now, I thought it would be nice when you try and condense your thoughts into singular posts, so the discussion is more fluid and not all over the place

[CrazyWR]

Wait they took the main gun away?  So its just an inferior stuka?  What the heck was the justification for that?

[aeroblade56]

Wait they took the main gun away?  So its just an inferior stuka?  What the heck was the justification for that?

Might have something to do with it being a non doctrinal artillery piece.

[Hicks58]

And the shit-ton-big-buff we gave to it's rockets.

That may have had something to do with it as well.

[EliteGren]

And the shit-ton-big-buff we gave to it's rockets.

That may have had something to do with it as well.

I am aware, but the whole concept of making it better artillery and removing it's unique feature is what im arguing against,there has been a trend going on in making PE units similar to Wehr. First PGs, now the stuka, sign me up for the new showcase next week of the new P4 barrell on the IST

[jackmccrack]

I am aware, but the whole concept of making it better artillery and removing it's unique feature is what im arguing against,there has been a trend going on in making PE units similar to Wehr. First PGs, now the stuka, sign me up for the new showcase next week of the new P4 barrell on the IST

This was me a couple of weeks ago, but now I am enlightened

[Smokaz]

To me it looks like some kind of standardization was made both on LV, repair and gunned artillery, which today is fine, but I will be sad if doctrines dont end up in some form to take advantage of the fact that these units [calli and hotchkai] have visible guns.

To some extent, all artillery pieces used to have some form of primary attack, if we deem the old luger on nebel to be a primary attack, and with buffs, it was pretty lol. The priest does have a nice mg on it too. Nebel luger has been removed, which gameplay wise was a good change.

If EIRR design is that without doctrines, no artillery pieces have main weapon, the situation today is that the factions on map pieces are pretty standardized against each other. Neither of them have a strong attack other than artillery barrage.

One way you make a unit "balanced enough" then, is to ensure people still use it. If its not used at all, even for its role, then its underpowered. If EIRR design is that we want to promote balanced company and unit diversity, all underused units need to be slowly made more viable over time, to promote a diverse meta.

[CrazyWR]

And the shit-ton-big-buff we gave to it's rockets.

That may have had something to do with it as well.

Was not aware of this, thanks.

[hans]

To me it looks like some kind of standardization was made both on LV, repair and gunned artillery, which today is fine, but I will be sad if doctrines dont end up in some form to take advantage of the fact that these units [calli and hotchkai] have visible guns.

To some extent, all artillery pieces used to have some form of primary attack, if we deem the old luger on nebel to be a primary attack, and with buffs, it was pretty lol. The priest does have a nice mg on it too. Nebel luger has been removed, which gameplay wise was a good change.

If EIRR design is that without doctrines, no artillery pieces have main weapon, the situation today is that the factions on map pieces are pretty standardized against each other. Neither of them have a strong attack other than artillery barrage.

One way you make a unit "balanced enough" then, is to ensure people still use it. If its not used at all, even for its role, then its underpowered. If EIRR design is that we want to promote balanced company and unit diversity, all underused units need to be slowly made more viable over time, to promote a diverse meta.

but if all units are standardized, u would pick them anyway.

[tank130]

One way you make a unit "balanced enough" then, is to ensure people still use it. If its not used at all, even for its role, then its underpowered. If EIRR design is that we want to promote balanced company and unit diversity, all underused units need to be slowly made more viable over time, to promote a diverse meta.

The new design is focused more on specialized weapons and less "jack of all trades" weapons.
Artillery units are just that, they are not intended to have a primary attack. If you want something that attacks, then you need to bring on a support unit to do so.

Edit: I should add, where we took away an artillery units weapons, we boosted their artillery power; making them a far more effective unit at their intended role.
In other words,  instead of having a unit that is mediocre at multiple task, it is good at it's intended task.

[EliteGren]

The new design is focused more on specialized weapons and less "jack of all trades" weapons.
Artillery units are just that, they are not intended to have a primary attack. If you want something that attacks, then you need to bring on a support unit to do so.

Edit: I should add, where we took away an artillery units weapons, we boosted their artillery power; making them a far more effective unit at their intended role.
In other words,  instead of having a unit that is mediocre at multiple task, it is good at it's intended task.

Is it worth the price you pay in terms of originality on units? That is the question. I can see where the change is coming from, like Smokaz suggested before it appears the best choice would be to make it a doctrine ability that allows it to use its main gun again. That way you preserve the uniqueness in a way, and it stops being a very mediocre artillery piece.

[tank130]

Keep in mind, all doctrine abilities will have resource costs.

I am not a fan of making units have dual roles, however if the price was high enough I guess anything is on the design table.

Make the unlock cost the same fuel & man power as a tank and add a tank gun I guess.

Probably not what you had in mind, but clearly units having dual roles is not what I have in mind 

[aeroblade56]

It's a good artillery piece and was getting 40+ kills a game. ask 105Tigerhunters.

[EliteGren]

It's a good artillery piece and was getting 40+ kills a game. ask 105Tigerhunters.

you missed the point completely. the price that was paid for making it "good" is...it is like all other artillery pieces now. units are becoming more and more the same. Originality is a thing of the past with this direction. How blind or unwilling to see does one have to be to not see this trend? It's main characteristic feature was removed in favour of making it "good" artillery. That raises the question: why does a non doctrinal piece need to be a "good" arty piece? It was fine being mediocre, because of that reason, it is non-doctrinal. But it had the maingun to compensate, which made the unit overall a great investment

[Tachibana]

As tank has stated, The stuka lost its main gun due to the design decision of no multi-purpose LV's. As a result, it lost its main gun but received a buff to the rockets as compensation.

Tank has also stated that he would be open to the return of the main gun through doctrines with adequate pricing. So, that means the dev team will take a look into the possibilities.

I don't see what else can be gleaned from this thread as I think the issue has been resolved for the most part. (other than aero waving some e-peen)

[EliteGren]

Tachi the Hotchkiss is a tank, a small one, but it is a tank. I don't see why it would even be affected by this if it was designated to be for light vehicles only. But making the main gun doctrinal would be okay. But refer to my above post, this route of introducing a "sameness" to the game has impacted the Hotchkiss Stuka more than any other unit, it doesn't really matter much on vehicles like the M8 for example. Some degree of it is good, but removing characteristic features from units designed with it is kind of pushing the boundaries.

It is a non doctrinal arty piece at the end of the day, it doesn't NEED to have good rockets, it has the main gun to compensate for it which makes it a great investment

[Hicks58]

The initial thread questions have been answered, and Tank has put forward his position on how the Stuka will be handled, which is remaining gun-less outside of doctrines.

Thread lock is go.