Patch R041

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[TheVolskinator]

General
1 - 105 and 88
   No longer gain vet bonuses.

2 - Snipers (both Axis and Allied)
   vCoH cloak has been re-enabled
   Pop cost reduced from 8 to 7.

American
Non-doctrinal:
1 - Jeep
   Cost increased from 75 MP, 10 FU to 90 MP, 10 FU.

2 - M10
   Vet3 no longer grants 0.8 scatter.
   Vet3 now grants 1.2 dmg. (as it did in the past).

3 - M8
   Main gun modified:
      Reverted to pre-LV nerf (basically vCoH) stats as a start.
      Acc. at L range reduced from 0.75 to 0.65.
      Pen. at S/M/L ranges decreased from 1/0.83/0.66 to 0.65/0.6225/0.495.
      Reload decreased from 7 s to 5.25 s.

Doctrinal:
1 - American Industry
   Dragon's Teeth build time increased from 22.5 s to 40 s.
   2x BAR cost increased from 65 to 85 MU.

2 - Fighting Spirit
   Cover bonus reduced from 0.8 cooldown/reload to 0.9 cooldown/reload.
   Cost decreased from 25 MP to 20 MP.

3 - M4 Rhino
   Main gun acc. at L range decreased from 0.75 to 0.65 (matches the nerf to the M4A1).

4 - M8 Scott
   Phase armor removed.
   Main gun replaced with the old Sherman HE rounds (pre-canister shot stats).
   Cost increased from 300 MP, 170 FU to 395 MP, 250 FU.
   For the time being, Pour it on 'Em has been priced out on the Scott.

Bugfix:
1 - Currahee
   AB Engies no longer gain multiple Fire-up! abilities.

2 - American Industry BARs
   Now functions when used in combination with Supp. and Maneuver (weapon toggle was previously missing).

Commonwealth
Non-doctrinal:
1 - Cromwell
   Acceleration increased from 2.43 to 4.86.
   Deceleration increased from 4.5 to 9.
   Hull rotation increased from 35 °/s to 70 °/s
   Cost increased from 370 MP, 200 FU to 395 MP, 225 FU.

2 - Sherman III
   Is now added to all CW doctrines. It is a statistical clone of the M4A1 with a different visual model, and will be CW's StuG-like "economy" medium tank.
   Main gun acc. at L range decreased from 0.75 to 0.65 (matches the nerf to the M4A1).
  
Doctrinal:
1 - Infantry Brigade
   Has been 100% enabled and implemented.

2 - Tank Shock
   Reload bonuses removed. Currently functions, but I'm leaving the description nebulous (I'll be changing it further with Newdocs).

Bugfix:
N/A

Wehrmacht
Non-doctrinal
1 - up-gun Puma
   Main gun modified:
      Acc. vs. all inf. armor types increased from 0.1 to 0.5.
      Damage reduced from 90 to 67.5.
      Reload reduced from 4.5 s to 3.7 s.

Doctrinal:
1 - StuG III
   Has been renamed to Stu. Gesch III Ausf. G "StuG III" (SPG)

2 - StuH 42
   Has been renamed to Stu. H 42 "StuH" (Hvy. SPG)

Bugfix:
1 - Cover and Evasion Training (Pak 40)
   Now functions.

2 - KT Tank Shock
   Now functions.
   Moved from UI 5 to UI 6.

3 - Smoke Cannisters (JP4)
   Now function.

4 - V1
   Now functions.

Panzer Elite
Non-doctrinal:
1 - Panzergrenadiere
   Cost decreased from 215 MP to 195 MP.

Doctrinal:
1 - Mechanized Advance
   1.15 acc. bonus removed.
   Now grants an 0.85 rec. acc. bonus.

2 - Mobile Suppression
   Luftwaffe le M.G. 34 stats now match those of the Bike MG (was previously using the old, high DPS weapon).

Bugfix:
1 - Infrarot
   Hetzer main gun dmg. is now the intended 100 (was previously 87.5).

2 - Highway 69
   Now correctly functions on the IST.

Map Changes
1 - Brecourt (6p) added

2 - Frozen River (6p) added

3 - Point du Hoc (4p) added

4 - Lanteville (4p) added

5 - Arnhem (4p) added

6 - Neuville (8p) now Neuville Winter (6/8p)

7 - Angoville (2p) sectors modified for new 1v1 mode

8 - Bastion (6p) updated: swamps removed, city opened up a tad

9 - Dutch Countryside (6p) updated: removed some more trees, fixed shotblockers

10 - Somewhere in Normandy (6p) updated: water removed because Area is a crybaby

11 - Adaire, D-day and Montherme (6p) ingame names fixed to match naming convention. Also made some small
       tweaks to Adaire to improve pathfinding and atmosphere.

12 - Removed Eindhoven (6p) from rotation

[Tachibana]

General
2 - Snipers (both Axis and Allied)
   vCoH cloak has been re-enabled
   Cost reduced from 540 MP, 200 MU to 400 MP, 150 MU.
   Pop cost reduced from 8 to 7.

Glad I left discord cause I probably would have legit been admitted to a psych ward if I read whatever QQ led to this change.

[ChetnikVoyvoda]

This is awesome!!! I can't wait for:
 

1 - Infantry Brigade
   Has been 100% enabled and implemented.

How will the cloak work on the PE Sniper?

Super excited for the Newdocs as well! They seem to be ideal for capturing the feeling that every doc is excellent if that is the flavor of forces you are inclined for!

[TheArea]

Thanks for the work Volks, but a couple of comments:

1. Seems like an odd move to make snipers cheaper and jeeps more expensive, in some ways it reads like a double buff to snipers, not to mention the return of vCoH cloak. I know snipers were being used less lately and needed a tiny bit of help, but we'll have to see what kind of effect this has in the run of play, and I'm with Tachi, I have serious doubts.

2. Locked and Loaded untouched? So, the insta suppression some qq about was left as is?

3. Still no help for zooks?

4. Ost Heat rounds unchanged?

I hope it's the case that 2,3, and 4 are being addressed via the doc rework.

Oh, and it'll be nice to see V1 again, I miss blocking with bike and hoping for the rocket to land on a super persh.

[Poppi]

Not understanding the triple buff snipers just received.

[Unkn0wn]

Great! On the snipers, that must be a typo on pricing, no? They were more expensive with cloak, not cheaper lol. I can dig out the old price and revert, unless you think making them cheaper is warranted.

[Bear]

I have two questions

First question:

New-Newdocs: Who, What, Where, When, Why, and "Volsky why are the Allies OP?!"
http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=29416.0

How do these changes fit with this thread?


Second question:

General
2 - Snipers (both Axis and Allied)
   vCoH cloak has been re-enabled
   Cost reduced from 540 MP, 200 MU to 400 MP, 150 MU.
   Pop cost reduced from 8 to 7.

Who thinks such a crap?
I thought EIR goes to Steam because more should play?
This change gives great frustration potential for new players!

Update:
EIR wants to be elite but the elite always stands by itself alone and there want also be alone!

So EIR will never be a successful game, if it is not designed for the mass of players!

Even with Volksy, there are still the old mistakes in thinking!

Poor EIR!

[GrayWolf]

Sniper price for years was 500, 200, 7pop. Then it went to 600, 250, 8 pop. I'm pretty sure it's a typo

[ChetnikVoyvoda]

I saw in the chat on Discord that people pointed out that Snipers were nerfed beyond reason. If I recall correctly, they were currently 200 MU. Perhaps it is wise to make them 150MU while leaving them unable to cloak outside of standing still in cover. It is extremely unrealistic and annoying to have cloaking units who can move outside of cover, not to mention militarily unviable, as if they have Predator suits or something. It is very realistic to have units cloak in cover, and I suggest that the price remains at 150MU for Snipers while they lose vCoH cloak, as well as for moving cloak to not be present on any other units, such as Storms, save perhaps for non-combat cheeky units like the Commandos Offmap Radioman, who is like a sneaky infiltrator super spy who moves along the edges of the map behind enemy lines.

Conversely, it is reasonable to point out that the Jeep costing 15 MP more, to be priced like a Wehr Bike or Schwimm, is not actually significant enough to be related to Sniper cost as an inherent buff to Snipers. Three or four Jeeps now cost 45-60 MP more than before, so this really isn’t that viable of a counterpoint to Snipers being buffed, rather it is penny pinching QQ the other direction about Snipers being buffed rather than nerfed.

Likewise, it is clear that Tachibana is right about the QQ about Snipers, however while I have seen him use Snipers, Poppi and GrayWolf I’ve never seen play at all, so they are likely forum armchair observers with veteran insight and I don’t know if they ever use Snipers, but Area in particular dislikes Snipers in his company as well as in general, and Bear and Unkn0wn also hardly ever use Snipers, at least not reliably, therefore there is a clear bias from this other camp against any sort of buff to Snipers, to be noted. In conclusion it would be great to see Snipers at the 400 MP, 150 MU price point, however only without moving cloak on Snipers, or any other units.

[Unkn0wn]

I use snipers in almost all my companies fyi, and still regularly get 10 - 30 kills on them. I wasnt a big fan of the cloak removal initially but got used to it now and wasn't actually a party asking for it to be returned. I suppose one could argue that with the return of cloak one could once again "counter snipe" as a viable counter to someone who's running snipers but I'm not sure that actually warrants the unit going down in price.

[Shabtajus]

Map Changes
N/A

Unknownz? lol? Where r our maps?

[Shabtajus]

As for snipers - i like it.

M8scottz - does it means it can now take on marders, ostwinds, p4s ans IST? I like it.

4men KCHs stay? I like it.

Overall good patch but if u managed to unlock rewards units as well, that would be awesome. Wp Steven for patch and FU Unknownz for no maps, ur terrible map lead

[Bear]

I use snipers in almost all my companies fyi, and still regularly get 10 - 30 kills on them. I wasnt a big fan of the cloak removal initially but got used to it now and wasn't actually a party asking for it to be returned. I suppose one could argue that with the return of cloak one could once again "counter snipe" as a viable counter to someone who's running snipers but I'm not sure that actually warrants the unit going down in price.

I think a good player can make between 15% to 40% of all his inf kills with a single sniper and it's too cheap for that.

[ChetnikVoyvoda]

I think a good player can make between 15% to 40% of all his inf kills with a single sniper and it's too cheap for that.

This is indeed an excellent point, however the prevalence of such high infantry kill counts, with good players, parallels the rarity of this occurring, likewise, with units such as Panzer IVs, Churchill and Sherman Crocs, Churchill AVREs, Tigers and King Tigers, Pershings, and Ostwinds- and more rarely, Shermans and Cromwells. It is often Panzer IVs and AVREs where you see high kill counts, as well as with Panzer IIIs and M8 Scotts recently, before this patch's changes of course. Munitions are almost universally more precious than Fuel, and the cost of 150 MU, much less 200 MU, for a highly fragile one-man infantry unit, combined with the high MP cost, is more prohibitively expensive than the cost of some of these tanks and vehicles, which can equally manage to accumulate infantry kills on a similarly occasional basis, paralleling the prevalence of occasional highly significant Sniper success.

[Bear]

This is indeed an excellent point, however the prevalence of such high infantry kill counts, with good players, parallels the rarity of this occurring, likewise, with units such as Panzer IVs, Churchill and Sherman Crocs, Churchill AVREs, Tigers and King Tigers, Pershings, and Ostwinds- and more rarely, Shermans and Cromwells. It is often Panzer IVs and AVREs where you see high kill counts, as well as with Panzer IIIs and M8 Scotts recently, before this patch's changes of course. Munitions are almost universally more precious than Fuel, and the cost of 150 MU, much less 200 MU, for a highly fragile one-man infantry unit, combined with the high MP cost, is more prohibitively expensive than the cost of some of these tanks and vehicles, which can equally manage to accumulate infantry kills on a similarly occasional basis, paralleling the prevalence of occasional highly significant Sniper success.

This change means that there will be more snipers and the more snipers are used the less sense it makes to bring ATGs or HMGs to.
Except maybe you can also cloak your ATGs.

With most Docs, this will make it more useful to take more Tank Destroyer (for example, Stug) instead of the ATGs.

And that makes Fuel even more valuable and anti-inf tanks (for example, P4) are used less frequently.

If you still set on ATGs you need more Inf for recrew this atgs or at some point the Map is littered with unoccupied ATGs and HMGs
 These units for recrewing do not need to be heavily armed. This makes Man more valuable than Mun.

I think this is all bad.

[Shabtajus]

What’s the fuss about snipers? Get a proper counter and do a push, not jus send 3 bikes no brainer thing. Snipers never was and will be a problem until each player takes responsibility bring counters. It’s a basic thing to do just like having minesweeper in ur company or an ATG. I love like guys QQ about certain unit and do not buy counters ever, leaving to teammates deal with annoying things like snipers/mines and QQing after lost game and blaming units instead of themselves for lack of common sense building proper companies

[Bear]

What’s the fuss about snipers? Get a proper counter and do a push, not jus send 3 bikes no brainer thing. Snipers never was and will be a problem until each player takes responsibility bring counters. It’s a basic thing to do just like having minesweeper in ur company or an ATG. I love like guys QQ about certain unit and do not buy counters ever, leaving to teammates deal with annoying things like snipers/mines and QQing after lost game and blaming units instead of themselves for lack of common sense building proper companies

You can not understand it because it is not a problem for you. For many other players it will be a problem and that will hurt EIR.

[Shabtajus]

You can not understand it because it is not a problem for you. For many other players it will be a problem and that will hurt EIR.

Fair enough. Then again, it’s not rocket science we are doing here and we have like 10-12 active players atm, so if somebody runs a certain unit based company, well it will not be a surprise next game and you will bring counter. If no, all its on you for not doing so. Its not a knock on u Bear, nor its on other players, i am just saying that some ppl never learn and they release there frustrations on blamin others instead of learning from mistakes

[Bear]

Fair enough. Then again, it’s not rocket science we are doing here and we have like 10-12 active players atm, so if somebody runs a certain unit based company, well it will not be a surprise next game and you will bring counter. If no, all its on you for not doing so. Its not a knock on u Bear, nor its on other players, i am just saying that some ppl never learn and they release there frustrations on blamin others instead of learning from mistakes

Good point Mister EIR elite Gamer.

I want to tell you a story. My ATGs crews were constantly shot away. By the time my unit arrived for recrewing, the ATGs were already destroyed.

So I had to call new ATGs. It will take some time until these come. Only these ATGs were fast again without crews again and everything started again.

The Area was firmly of the opinion I had no ATGs at all the time and was very angry.

That's not funny!

I have something else to say about cloaking, to.

Even though I never use it and only slowly started using it in my last plays with Blitz-Coy. These units in real were specialized in approaching undetected. There was distraction attacks, wrong uniforms and much more used what in a game like EIR can not really be considered. Jumping from cover to cover does not make up for that. Then more of a capability that a unit for a few seconds is not automatically recognized as an enemy unit.

[ChetnikVoyvoda]

It is true that the Allies have to use either Recoiless Rifles on Airborne, or rely on Tank Destroyers and ATGs. In your ATG scenario, you overextended with ATGs by relying on them on your frontlines, or were picked off entirely to be unable to defend them and lost your position because you had no Sniper-Counters.

No one is approaching coordinated companies in the midst of a literal battle with wrong uniforms and passing undetected. The Austrians in the Napoleonic Era always had a bubble of scouts around their forces to counter any infiltrators, and the Romans and all top level generals always used extensive scouting to spot infiltrators. The protocol is to answer a code word, one which is changed frequently in order to prevent the enemy from acquiring it from interrogating captured prisoners, even if the approaching unit has the same uniform,  and if the password is wrong, the protocol is shoot on sight. No one is walking over open ground invisible. This naive comparison leads perfectly into your bias surrounding Snipers, because you are not a critical thinker in this military regard.

This change means that there will be more snipers and the more snipers are used the less sense it makes to bring ATGs or HMGs to.
Except maybe you can also cloak your ATGs.

With most Docs, this will make it more useful to take more Tank Destroyer (for example, Stug) instead of the ATGs.

And that makes Fuel even more valuable and anti-inf tanks (for example, P4) are used less frequently.

If you still set on ATGs you need more Inf for recrew this atgs or at some point the Map is littered with unoccupied ATGs and HMGs
 These units for recrewing do not need to be heavily armed. This makes Man more valuable than Mun.

I think this is all bad.

The Fuel invested should be directly for countering Snipers. It takes 10 FU per Bike or Jeep. That's 40 FU for a Bike or Jeep rush. PE do not use HMGs or ATGs, other than in Scorched Earth and Tank Hunters, respectively, with these docs having alternatives for these in PE in general. Brits have the Recon Section in Universal Carrier combination which is just as reliable in most cases, sometimes more reliable because of its precision, sometimes less reliable because it can be focus-fired more easily. The investment for these Sniper-Counters is less than that of a Sniper by far.


Your reasoning is exclusively based on not being able to successfully counter enemy Snipers, because no one would follow your logic of considering Manpower more expensive than Munitions because you require to re-crew the half-dozen HMGs and ATGs you just lost to them all being sniped and now being strews everywhere on the battlefield. If you manage to re-crew your field equipment at this point in a hypothetical game scenario, you are still not meeting the cost of a Sniper, because you just used less expensive infantry squads to get a second usage for all of those support weapons, and can consider the cost of those weapons being replenished with being able to use them a second, or third time.


All of these arguments are predicated on not being able to use Sniper-Counters. If you are not using your own Snipers, which I know you, Bear, are not, you can use Sniper-Counters. If you have 2 of these reliable Sniper counters in your company and are still struggling against 1-2 Snipers, then you should practice micro and overall strategy skills.


Specifically, according to Lothen's Balance Flow Chart, you should evaluate:
->Unit:
->Sniper.
->I wanna nerf it.
->What is the intended role of the unit?
->Is that the role I believe it should have?
->Yes, but...
->It does that one thing too well.
->Compared to what?
->Functionally unique.
->Are there functional counters?
->Are there at least 2 counters available to each doctrine?
->Yes. (Bike/ Armed Schwimm/ Jeep rushes, & counter-sniping, with other counters including artillery and pushing aggressively, with vehicles chasing the Sniper rather than relying on a camping defensive strategy without employing Sniper-Counters)
->Its balanced, NugNug.



Lothen said it, not me.