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[Mysthalin]

In all honesty - the rise of the sniper is something that I anticipated years and years ago, in my officially designated role as quartermaster general of EiR.

What made me consider this emergent threat? Well, nerfing Machineguns.

I anticipated from the very get go that making MGs more expensive from their utterly paltry 250 MP 30 MU (ish) costs at the time would mean an immediate change in their use to be more effective by the EIR community. Blame it on me being an economist that understands how incentives work, or a Nostradamus-level idiot savant - but my imagination was always focused on the presumption that a nerf to MGs in terms of cost would lead to an almost immediate spike in their tactical utilisation by all players.

Why is that? Simply because of human nature. If one has an easy, no-micro-required option to deal with more or less any infantry threat at the same cost and half the pop input of a grenadier with a grenade - human nature is to utilize it as much as possible. It is sensible. It is also human nature to use no-brainer solutions in a no-brainer manner. So while the "EiR elite" would use MGs as the uber-powered tools of rape that they were - the rank and file would put them in a church and forget about them till they died.

How many times have you put a 'nilla rifle squad, or even two, in a church to stay there and die for the glory of 'murrica? How many of your volks squads have died trying to fire off a single faust off at an M8, with zero consideration for the letters that the company commanders would have to write home? How often did you try to micro these units for best effect to prevent this waste of life, and the letters being written by the company commanders to the grieving widows on the homefront?

With MGs becoming more expensive, by a large degree, they could no longer be seen as throwaway units. From Rocksitter to yoye101 everyone started to treat them more akin to StuGs or Shermans. Important parts of the offensive force that needed to come in with the rest of the company, leading to a more sophisticated use of their firepower. It also meant that manpower - the oft maligned red headed step-child of EiR resources suddenly became much more valuable. If 4 machineguns suddenly replace 8-9+ squads of volks/rifles, as opposed to just 4 squads of grens the arithmetic of war means that suppressing a squad of infantry once is no longer a good enough justification. So with all these pressures - MGs just became better, despite them nominally being nerfed in price. Heck, the once-mocked .30 cal is now sweared at by many an axis player despite receiving only one buff (+5m range) roughly 3 years ago!

This makes snipers a very, very natural response to the meta-game. With MGs becoming more prevalent on the tactical level (the change of tactics for which prevents just being nuked by retard-charge nades) and at the same time more "juicy" for snipers - the level of surprise I experience at snipers now dominating the meta approaches zero pretty damn quickly. Especially since general use of snipers has been improving among the general populace throughout the years.

The one main issue that I am not sure how to resolve, even as a (by some accounts) relatively experienced player - is what options have been made available to me for countering the sniper specifically over the years. Us, experienced players, have always played by the assumption that snipers without cloak (the Commando sniper most notably, but the FSJ sniper to a degree) are often better than ones that can cloak at will due to being forced into more favourable tactics for sniper survival than their more "free" counterparts. Look at any shoutcast featuring Skaffa between 2010-2013. His (WM) snipers are almost never cloaked. And yet they'll rack up 50+ kills each game, regardless of who he's playing against.

So the recent "nerf" of removing cloak from the WM and US sniper to me are almost a buff. Sure, a capability was dropped - but one that other than super extreme niche cases acted as a noob trap. So now we have a double-whammy of:
1) Snipers that are forced into more effective roles by most players
2) Them having better targets to shoot.

Whereas after more than 10 years of play, the community has rarely evolved in good counters for snipers in general. The 3x Bike rush has been used in 2007-8 as the cornerstone. Back then it was a clear response. Today it is often used, and rarely effective. Other variations such as the bike + puma do exist, but I personally haven't witnessed them as being any better at the tactical level. Typically what overwhelms a sniper is either:

1) A strategic-level assault across a broad front that wins you sufficient ground to win the pop battle.
2) Arty randomly killing the sniper.

The outcomes for gameplay are tied entirely to what the player situations are:

1) Is fun, particularly if you are fighting highly competitive 2v2s for grudgepoints amongst veteran EiR players.
2) Is just boring, where the sniper racks up kills and the other team has no clear counter unless they pull off response 1) regardless.

And, in my view, very little in-between exists. I honestly do not know what the best way to attempt to counter that would be. A part of me says that instead of barring snipers from cloaked movement - perhaps they should be tied entirely to it. Move slowly and cloaked by default, strike at range and get kills - but if you're out of position without support to bail you out - you're fucked. Would this work? I don't know. I'd be more than willing to try this option rather than stupid nerfs like limiting the amount you can buy, their cost (which is already quite high) or ROF (which is finally equalised across the factions).

[TheArea]

Why is that? Simply because of human nature.

And this is why economists fail, they apply metaphysics to a field where it need not belong.

[ChetnikVoyvoda]

It is an over-nerf to keep Snipers from being able to move at regular speed, even if given the ability to cloak and move, because this would not only buff artillery, it would also nerf the vehicles that rush in and kill a sniper, other than the Jeep or Bike rushes, namely the light vehicles or tanks that rush in and hunt them down. By not being able to cloak and move, there is the vulnerability to being hunted down by these tank and vehicle rushes that are not explicit Sniper-Counters. This occurs very frequently, because the speed of vehicles over infantry gives them the ability to approach the Sniper with avoiding damage behind shot blockers, while having sufficient health to maneuver up to the Sniper with absorbing damage. If the Sniper is able to cloak and move, this makes such vehicle and tank rushes far riskier because they do not have adequate detection. On the other hand, not being able to move at regular speed would nearly certainly condemn Snipers to Allied Howitzers, Hummels, and Calliopes. It will be such a reliable counter to bring such artillery to counter Snipers, that those doctrines lacking it will be nerfed, such as Airborne, Wehr in general, Tank Destroyers, and Luftwaffe. Meanwhile, the short-range Howitzers for Commandos and RSE will also likely be a nerf for these doctrines because of limited anti-Sniper capability compared with their longer-range artillery counterparts.

By being able to cloak and move, there is the advantage of a Sniper being able to take shots at HMGs within the HMG’s range, and target the HMG gunners manning the HMG, who are always targeted first, then recloak again before the new gunner can target the Sniper and kill him, which is before the Sniper can take another shot. It is ludicrous to say that the Sniper not having the ability of moving cloak is a gift to new players, because this is simply conjecture.

We should consider that the Sniper has in the fist place already experienced a significant nerf. My suggestion, again, is the 400 MP, 150 MU price, while not being able to cloak outside of cover.

[Tachibana]

And this is why economists fail, they apply metaphysics to a field where it need not belong.

Holy shit, Area, marry me. Im smitten.

[TheArea]

careful now, I already got crimson, shab, and chit pregnant.

[ChetnikVoyvoda]

careful now, I already got crimson, shab, and chit pregnant.

I quite enjoyed the couple of politically-inclined discussions we had on Discord. Don't sour the experience posting inflammatory stuff like that. Keep it civil lest I turn into the next tank130.

[TheVolskinator]

My changes to the snipers (reverting them and triple buffing them) was the result of a deluge of QQ from basically everyone (at one point or another) that snipers were now useless, they never kill anything, it's 100% absolutely impossible to countersnipe with them, etc.

The price change I've already reverted (I need to update the notes). The pop and cloak changes will probably be reverted with the first hotfix I release (which will also take into account SnM and some other nonsense like scoped StGs on 4-man KCH).

I overreacted as usual; my take on the whole thing? Cloakless (outside of cover) snipers are fine, l2p. Seriously.

[Bear]

It is true that the Allies have to use either Recoiless Rifles on Airborne, or rely on Tank Destroyers and ATGs. In your ATG scenario, you overextended with ATGs by relying on them on your frontlines, or were picked off entirely to be unable to defend them and lost your position because you had no Sniper-Counters.

THX for your lesson Mr. EIR elite gamer

I mostly play Axis and I bring 3 bikes and 2 Flame HT at the sametime as sniper count and last time I killed a sniper so successfully from about 3 years ago. With mortar I was more successful against Sniper in this time.


If we in the team try to excel ourselves in that our own support weapons are in the back row, we can also park them directly at the spawn..

[Unkn0wn]

This is all much ado about nothing really. Snipers are not like myst states "dominating the meta". In fact I don't think other than me, Magz and Shab anyone else uses them regularly, and of those people only Shab sometimes runs more than 1. They were largely fine with the cloak removed at their current price point and I imagine they'll be fine with cloak re-added as well. Myst does rightly point out that the cloak more often than not acts as a noob-trap as players are more likely to lose snipers by trying to move away cloaked at slow pace than they are by keeping them uncloaked at max range and constantly on the move.

Their price is sufficiently restrictive to prevent the kind of sniper spam builds we used to see in the puddin-days (3-4 snipers surrounded by a blob of RR AB - the horror), and with cloak re-added using another sniper as a counter once again becomes a possibility as well. In the end though, it won't matter. Good players will still be able to comfortable rack up a lot of kills on them (possibly even by keeping them uncloaked for most of the time), while poor players will continue to struggle with them due to their micro-intensity, and everyone will continue to randomly lose snipers to things like mortars and artillery, from time to time.

What is more concerning I find is the persistence of heavy reliance on support weapons on both sides, but on the allied side especially. The MG nerf helped address this to some extent but until allies get proper reliable HHAT options and a revision of their TD units, ATG spam is going to continue to be the order of the day. This is one of the main issues with the allied faction currently in my view, and actually runs counter to the design of the US faction for one. In all, i believe  it's undermining the kind of dynamic gameplay that EIR is normally known for.

[TheVolskinator]

The M10 upgun exists and works well when used with sticky support. I would advise trying to make increased use of both it and the M18. At the end of the day I think the US does fine when players combine the ATGs and TDs. It's pop intensive but that's always been the downside to US--they're cost efficient but not pop efficient.

[Tachibana]

This is all much ado about nothing really. Snipers are not like myst states "dominating the meta".

I think myst is referring to the meta about 6 months ago prior to the cloak removal and fire rate equalization. Snipers were most definitely defining the meta.

[Shabtajus]

6 months ago it was AB nonsense and snipers had nothing to do with it lol. Ya guises should play more so ya could tell what was what :p

[Mysthalin]

In fact I don't think other than me, Magz and Shab anyone else uses them regularly

Plenty of other users as well. Rug in particular comes to mind - I'm sure Speedy can provide you with a list of all other dirty sniper spammers and a disturbingly accurate and detailed list of when multiple snipers were last seen by said players.

What is more concerning I find is the persistence of heavy reliance on support weapons on both sides, but on the allied side especially. The MG nerf helped address this to some extent but until allies get proper reliable HHAT options and a revision of their TD units, ATG spam is going to continue to be the order of the day. This is one of the main issues with the allied faction currently in my view, and actually runs counter to the design of the US faction for one. In all, i believe  it's undermining the kind of dynamic gameplay that EIR is normally known for.

I both agree and disagree there. It's perfectly possible to play well as the US without much of a need to over-invest in ATGs (or even M10s). Smart use of stickies, mines and even zooks can easily tide you over for most games, and most of my US companies don't tend to have much more than 1 or 2 ATGs as a result. It takes a bit of practice and a different mindset, but it's pretty rewarding - but few people are willing to take the plunge. Same goes for Wehrmacht - people just rely on support weapons due to familiarity, simplicity and convenience.
The story is different for the brits, however. As good as PIATs and Boys are - they're definitely only supporting AT - and fireflies aren't always the most fun unit to use - so you're kind of stuck with ATG spam from them in most cases. Although I like to play a Churchil Mk IV spam company with minimal ATGs as an interesting twist I can hardly recommend it in good faith to most players.

I think myst is referring to the meta about 6 months ago prior to the cloak removal and fire rate equalization. Snipers were most definitely defining the meta.

Indeed, referring to about 5-6 months ago - though they had just lost their cloak at the time. Didn't think there had been much of a change for them since?

On the other hand, not being able to move at regular speed would nearly certainly condemn Snipers to Allied Howitzers, Hummels, and Calliopes.

Fair point.

We should consider that the Sniper has in the fist place already experienced a significant nerf. My suggestion, again, is the 400 MP, 150 MU price, while not being able to cloak outside of cover.

Nerfs that were very well deserved. The sniper is by no means underpowered for its price (500 MP, 200 MU) - the opposite is in fact more likely. At 400 MP and 150 MU having 2-3 snipers would quickly become a no-brainer - and playing the brits would become an absolute chore by comparison.

[NightRain]

Why not make snipers reward units? Are they an essential tool in a company one might ask? I think not. It is just one of the many.

[Shabtajus]

Lol what?

[Bear]

Why not make snipers reward units? Are they an essential tool in a company one might ask? I think not. It is just one of the many.

You mean cheaper but reward unit, or?

There should still be Sniper to but it should not be so cheap that each player will have at least one Sniper with them.
That would change everything, I think.

But if you all like it that way ...

Will there be reward units again?

[Unkn0wn]

Reward units are coming back yes, or rather there's already some but there'll be more. And the sniper price is staying as it is, not getting cheaper.

[fabulous_rug]

Plenty of other users as well. Rug in particular comes to mind

WAT?? since when do I use snipers as of late? I only ever kill them by using free flank speed on cromwells 

[Unkn0wn]

Added overview of map changes

[TheVolskinator]

I'm holding off on the map changes until I can get some sweet deets from unknown regarding them. Expect them with the hotfix.

EDIT: PIE zipfile in sig updated w. new info.