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[Olazaika1]

Balance/economy patch 8.0.0.8.5 by Unkn0wn and Olazaika

US
[Armor]
Willy Peter cost for Sherman Croc increased to 100 mp.
[Infantry]
Base of fire Quad upgrade cost increased to 60 MP
[Airborne]
Light cavalry Quad upgrade cost decreased to 60 MP
Spare Munitions cost brought down to 65 MU
Airborne .30 cal cost increased to 325 MP 55 MU
Aerial Supplies cost reduced to 75 MU

WEHRMACHT

[Terror]
Force Recon cost for Panther reduced to 100 MP
HEAT cost for JP4 reduced to 50 FU
Panzerjager Abteilung - JP4 heal cost reduced to 50 FU
Firestorm cost reduced to 75 MU, now able to purchase 2 uses.
Grille implemented to Terror, 380 MP, 200 FU
Modernized repairs changed to Infanteriebewaffnung - Grenadiers can purchase 4 MP40's for 50 MU

[Blitzkrieg]
Assault Tactics - 4x MP40's price changed to 50 MU, Removed from Grenadiers, only available to Stormtroopers.
Pervitin Pills cost reduced to 15 MU
Flammen HT - Upgrade from Around the Maginot flamer price changed from 40 FU to 40 MP.

[Defensive]
Artillery training for Flak 88- Upgrade cost changed to 100 MP
For the Fatherland price reduced to 60 MU
4x le. MG26(t) price reduced to 85 MU
Rocket Artillery price lowered to 90 MU

We'll attempt to do slight changes to the other factions tomorrow

[TheVolskinator]

That 4x long upgrade was changed to give 2x lmgs im pretty sure.

[Olazaika1]

kings?

[TheVolskinator]

lmgs. thank autocorrect.

[Mysthalin]

Balance/economy patch 8.0.0.8.6

WM

Grenadiers - Cost reduced from 240 MP to 220 MP
KCH - Cost reduced from 290 MP 110 MU to 270MP 90 MU
4x STG stormtroopers - Cost reduced from 120 MU to 100 MU

CW

Tommies - Cost reduced from 250 MP to 230 MP

US

Rangers Full package - Cost Reduced from 200 MU to 180 MU

[Tachibana]

US

Rangers Full package - Cost Reduced from 200 MU to 180 MU

Mwhahahahahha

[Unkn0wn]

I priced Churchills at 210 F (from 190 F) and repair kits at 100 Mun until their pop issue is addressed. This should functionally give players one less Churchill to fight with and more of a Mun drain on their repair kits (in line with cost of repair kits on tanks with similar HP pools & armour values)

That being said, I honestly see no reason why churchills should cost 190 F even once we address pop cost. MP and doctrine upgrade costs are a different question. They're essentially somewhere between jumbos (300 F, 13 pop) and pershings (545 F, 16 pop) in terms of their ability to soak damage, be it with much shoddier DPS output (though still good enough in terms of AI).

[Mysthalin]

They're flatly inferior to Jumbos and Pershings at soaking damage, not somewhere in-between.

Jumbos and Pershings have Pershing Armour and higher base health (Jumbos 811, Pershings 990) versus the Churchil's 700 HP and Churchil Armour.

How "good" is Churchil Armour? Quick table comparing some commonly-faced weapons:

Gun           Sherman   Churchil   Pershing
Pak           0.755        0.527        0.495
Shrek        0.877       0.529         0.458
Marder      0.614        0.58          0.321
Panzer 4    0.622        0.58         0.325
Panther     1.129        1.068         0.6
Tiger           1.000       0.8299       0.7

It does pretty well vs Paks and Shreks, granted - but the benefit over Sherman armour is marginal at best when facing anything vehicle-based. It's also one of the slowest tanks in the game at 3.75 speed and piss-poor acceleration.

The gun is flatly put - terrible. I know you're convinced it's an infantry killing machine - but it has less splash than a StuG (not joking, look it up).

I know that I'm retiring my churchill company for the time being. With a repair kit that costs 25% more than a Panther's per tank, and 210 FU a pop.. If I do play CW Armour it'll be with AVREs, Crocs or Cromwells - even I can't make the Mk 4 Alcoholic meme work as it stands.

[Unkn0wn]

Well, I was factoring in the 200 extra HP from ablative armour, which puts them pretty much in between. You agree it does pretty well versus paks and shreks, which make up the mainstay of axis AT. That in itself is enough of a justification for them to not be 190 fuel. Essentially you're saying players should just bring a 400-500 Fuel, 16 pop heavy tank to counter a 190 fuel tank 10 pop tank on the British side. And then of course they need to keep their 2 panthers or tigers around long enough to be able to deal with 6 of those in total. The economics of that just dont add up.

I never said they are infantry killing machines, but they do a reliable enough job killing infantry and even penetrating LVs and medium tanks for the ridiculously low price point. You're being misleading in your claim that the gun is completely terrible.

You're also being very dramatic in your response to a 20 Mun price increase on a repair kit and a 20 fuel increase on churchills. I very much doubt your build will "no longer work" but of course you'd rather not put it to test than risk being proven wrong. I would much rather we start with a pop change as we can all agree 10 pop on them is completely broken but  until that's sorted I'm sure most will agree this a very reasoned stopgap measure.

[Mysthalin]

The armour type matters a lot - Even with Ablative it wouldn't be somewhere in between, but perhaps somewhere just below, or significantly below Jumbos depending on the target. I don't agree that this, in itself, is justification for them to be more expensive fuel wise. They're tanky'ish, sure, but they don't offer much beyond that tankyness.

They do well against paks and shreks - but both paks and shreks can effectively out-maneouver the thing. Two paks, used well, that can cover each other are a near-enough insurmountable obstacle to 2 Mk4s. If even M4A1 "shitshow" shermans were used to fight that they could handily win, by contrast.

I don't think it's dramatic at all to say that 100 mu to repair a Mk4 Churchill is ridiculous when you pay 120 for a tiger or 80 for a panther. These are not good tanks. They can pot-shot infantry in a slow and ponderous manner - but when it happens it shouldn't be on the Church's grounds. Nobody other than me seems to use them to any real effect, and I feel like there's a reason for it - and that's just the sheerly terrible gun the vehicle fields. It requires allies to play well and trust the church in it's damage soak capacity, otherwise it's useless. Since you can't truthfully afford anything other than the churchills in the first place.

[Unkn0wn]

The below graphs show how in the case of these supply disruption, other gas imports are brought in using existing infrastructure.

I used them against you and speedy yesterday, after the nerf and got 21k score, with a combined 60 or so kills on the 5 churchills. Not to mention the sheer amount of AT and armour that was lost by you guys in trying to combat them. So yeh, i do think you are being overly dramatic.

Anyway, that anecdotal evidence but their pop needs to go up first and then they can be reassessed

[Unkn0wn]

Small price change 8.0.0.8.7

Engineers: 140 MP to 160 MP
Pioneers: 220 MP to 210 MP
Panther: 600 MP 450 FU to 600 MP, 400 FU
76mm Sherman: 395 MP, 280 FU to 475 MP, 280 FU

[Mysthalin]

Proposed price changes:

US

.30 cal HMG: 300 MP 40 MU to 300 MP 60 MU
Engineer Mines: 30 MU to 40 MU
M8 Mines: 35 Mu to 60 MU (Also applies to Sipahis M8 Mines) Note: M8 mines have 2x damage of regular mines.

Doctrinal:
INFANTRY: "Divisional Assets" - +100 HP on Sherman croc now 20 FU rather than free
INFANTRY: "Lead The Way" - 0.5 Rec Acc + 500 targer priority on Crocs 20 MP to 100 MP
INFANTRY: "Willy Peter" - Crocs spawn smoke on firing 100 mp to 100 mp 80 FU (Note: temporary until 2x Cooldown nerf implemented in RGD patch).
INFANTRY: Replacements: 60 MP to 120 MP
INFANTRY: Smokenades: 20 MU to 30 MU
INFANTRY: Frangibles: 45 MU to 35 MU

AIRBORNE: .30 Cal Airborne HMG: 325 MP 50 MU to 325 MP 75 MU
AIRBORNE: Airborne AI mines 25 MU to 40 MU
AIRBORNE: Airborne AT mines 25 MU to 40 MU

CW

Sapper Mines 30 MU to 40 MU
25 Pounder: 360 MP 160 Fu to 380 MP 120 FU

Doctrinal:
RSE: AVRE cost from 460MP 275 FU to 460 MP 220 FU
RSE: AEC cost from 340 MP 180 FU to 320 MP 170 FU

CDO: Advanced Snap Shooting: On Commandos: 20 MP to 20 MP 20 MU (Note, temporary until reduced from 1.75 acc on move).
CDO: Night Drop 15 MP to 30 MP (Note, temporary until duration reduced from 15s to 10s)
CDO: Rush From the Beachhead 35 MP to 10 MP


WM

Pioneers: from 210 MP to 200 MP
Pioneers: Flamethrower from 45 MU to 20 MP 45 MU
Pioneers: Mine from 30 MU to 40 MU
Ostwind: 400 MP 175 FU to 350 MP 175 FU
Nebelwerfer: 400 MP 140 FU to 325 MP 140 FU
JP4/StuG 3: 275 MP 175 FU to 250 MP 150 FU
Flamm HT: 260 MP 40 FU to 220 MP 30 FU
Puma 20mm: 280 MP 140 FU to 260 MP 100 FU
Puma 50mm: 280 MP 160 FU to 280 MP 120 FU

Doctrinal:
DEFENSIVE: Unbreakable: Cost from 40 MP to 20 MP
DEFENSIVE: Cover & Evastion Training: Cost for infantry from 15 MP to 5 MP.
DEFENSIVE: Assault Training Pioneers from 250 MP to 220 MP
DEFENSIVE: Sanitats Companie: Medic Bunker from 140 MU to 100 MU

TERROR: Hull Defilade from 50 MP to 20 MP
TERROR: Fire and Advance from 50/30 MP on various tanks to 25 MP standardised
TERROR: HEAT from 100 MP/150 MP on panthers to 75 MP standardised
TERROR: Force Recon 30 MP on JP4s to 10 MP
TERROR: Force Recon 65 MP on P4H, P4J to 45 MP
TERROR: Force Recon 100 MP on Panther to 45 MP
TERROR: Command Panzer from 540 MP 380 FU to 495 MP 300 FU (Note: same as Jumbo).
TERROR: Krieg Aura from 40 MU to 20 MU
TERROR: Tank Terror from 60 Mu to 20 Mu

BLITZKRIEG: Pervitin Pills - from 15 MU to 5 MP
BLITZKRIEG: Breakthrough: Puma armour on HTs from 30 MP to 25 MP
BLITZKRIEG: Breakthrough: LV's 1.2 accel buff from 40 MP to 15 MP.
BLITZKRIEG: Overwhelm: 15 MP on infantry to 10 MP.

PE

Panzergrens: 215 MP to 205 MP
Panzergrens: Vet Sergeant: 25 MP to 10 MP
Panzergrens: G43: 65 MU to 60 MU
Panzergrens: AT Nade 20 MU to 10 MU
(Note: implement across all 3 versions of pgren).
Muni HT: 200 MP 35 FU to 180 MP 15 FU
Vampire HT: 210 MP 30 FU to 150 MP 15 FU
Armoured Car: 280 MP 140 FU to 260 MP 100 FU
Hotchkiss: 280 MP 140 FU to 260 MP 135 FU
Hotchkiss Upgun: remains at 250 MP 150 FU

[Unkn0wn]

Some suggestions, i think we should take a more incremental approach on some of these

Proposed price changes:

US

.30 cal HMG: 300 MP 40 MU to 300 MP 60 MU
Engineer Mines: 30 MU to 35 MU
M8 Mines: 35 Mu to 50 MU (Also applies to Sipahis M8 Mines) Note: M8 mines have 2x damage of regular mines.

Doctrinal:
INFANTRY: "Divisional Assets" - +100 HP on Sherman croc now 20 FU rather than free
INFANTRY: "Lead The Way" - 0.5 Rec Acc + 500 targer priority on Crocs 20 MP to 100 MP
INFANTRY: "Willy Peter" - Crocs spawn smoke on firing 100 mp to 100 mp 80 FU (Note: temporary until 2x Cooldown nerf implemented in RGD patch).
INFANTRY: Replacements: 60 MP to 100 MP
INFANTRY: Smokenades: 20 MU to 30 MU
INFANTRY: Frangibles: 45 MU to 35 MU

AIRBORNE: .30 Cal Airborne HMG: 325 MP 50 MU to 325 MP 60 MU (I thought we established its identical to reg .30) (
AIRBORNE: Airborne AI mines 25 MU to 35 MU
AIRBORNE: Airborne AT mines 25 MU to 35 MU

CW

Sapper Mines 30 MU to 35 MU
25 Pounder: 360 MP 160 Fu to 380 MP 120 FU
Stuart: 280 MP 160 FU to 280 MP, 140 FU

Doctrinal:
RSE: AVRE cost from 460MP 275 FU to 460 MP 250 FU
RSE: AEC cost from 340 MP 180 FU to 320 MP 170 FU

CDO: Advanced Snap Shooting: On Commandos: 20 MP to 20 MP 20 MU (Note, temporary until reduced from 1.75 acc on move).
CDO: Night Drop 15 MP to 30 MP (Note, temporary until duration reduced from 15s to 10s)
CDO: Rush From the Beachhead 35 MP to 10 MP


WM

Pioneers: from 210 MP to 200 MP
Pioneers: Flamethrower from 45 MU to 20 MP 45 MU
Pioneers: Mine from 30 MU to 35 MU
Ostwind: 400 MP 175 FU to 350 MP 175 FU
Nebelwerfer: 400 MP 140 FU to 325 MP 140 FU
JP4/StuG 3: 275 MP 175 FU to 250 MP 150 FU I think JP4s are fine really, but mb can go down to 165
Flamm HT: 260 MP 40 FU to 220 MP 30 FU
Puma 20mm: 280 MP 140 FU to 260 MP 100 FU prob going to regret this when people start fielding 4 at a time
Puma 50mm: 280 MP 160 FU to 280 MP 140 FU (These are not so bad, effective at hunting down shermans, etc

Doctrinal:
DEFENSIVE: Unbreakable: Cost from 40 MP to 20 MP
DEFENSIVE: Cover & Evastion Training: Cost for infantry from 15 MP to 5 MP.
DEFENSIVE: Assault Training Pioneers from 250 MP to 220 MP
DEFENSIVE: Sanitats Companie: Medic Bunker from 140 MU to 100 MU

TERROR: Hull Defilade from 50 MP to 20 MP
TERROR: Fire and Advance from 50/30 MP on various tanks to 25 MP standardised
TERROR: HEAT from 100 MP/150 MP on panthers to 75 MP standardised
TERROR: Force Recon 30 MP on JP4s to 10 MP
TERROR: Force Recon 65 MP on P4H, P4J to 45 MP
TERROR: Force Recon 100 MP on Panther to 45 MP
TERROR: Command Panzer from 540 MP 380 FU to 495 MP 300 FU (Note: same as Jumbo).
TERROR: Krieg Aura from 40 MU to 20 MU
TERROR: Tank Terror from 60 Mu to 20 Mu

BLITZKRIEG: Pervitin Pills - from 15 MU to 5 MP
BLITZKRIEG: Breakthrough: Puma armour on HTs from 30 MP to 25 MP
BLITZKRIEG: Breakthrough: LV's 1.2 accel buff from 40 MP to 15 MP.
BLITZKRIEG: Overwhelm: 15 MP on infantry to 10 MP.

PE

Panzergrens: 215 MP to 205 MP (Aren't they functionally closer to grens than rifles?
Panzergrens: Vet Sergeant: 25 MP to 20 MP (sprint for 10 mp is too cheap, its great utility value)
Panzergrens: G43: 65 MU to 60 MU
Panzergrens: AT Nade 20 MU to 10 MU (this isnt going to make any difference, the ability needs a rework)
(Note: implement across all 3 versions of pgren).
Muni HT: 200 MP 35 FU to 180 MP 15 FU
Vampire HT: 210 MP 30 FU to 150 MP 15 FU
Armoured Car: 280 MP 140 FU to 260 MP 100 FU
Hotchkiss: 280 MP 140 FU to 260 MP 135 FU
Hotchkiss Upgun: remains at 250 MP 150 FU

[Tachibana]

Stugs are already pretty MP efficient. I'd be hesitant to lower it even further for fear of an Axis GMC.

[Unkn0wn]

Why are StuHs 400 MP tho

[Unkn0wn]

Made these changes for now

CDO: Advanced Snap Shooting: On Commandos: 20 MP to 20 MP 20 MU (Note, temporary until reduced from 1.75 acc on move).
CDO: Night Drop 15 MP to 30 MP (Note, temporary until duration reduced from 15s to 10s)
Tet Upgun to 180 F
Tet Unupgun to 160 F

[Mysthalin]

AIRBORNE: .30 Cal Airborne HMG: 325 MP 50 MU to 325 MP 75 MU (I thought we established its identical to reg .30)

The crew still has much better pack-up times and airborne armour + airborne deployment - costing more than the regular MG is warranted.

INFANTRY: Replacements: 60 MP to 100 MP

I think it should be 120 MP. A single reinforced rifle costs 20 MP in-game, and you get 120 in-game MP per purchase. That's enough to reinforce a squad from 3 man to 6 man twice. 120 Mp to turn two near-dead rifle squads to full fighting efficiency isn't much.

Mines

Yeah OK, let's be more incremental.

Stuart: 280 MP 160 FU to 280 MP, 140 FU

The stuart is actually excellent, outDPSing Cromwells in the AT role. I'm not too keen on buffing them.

RSE: AVRE cost from 460MP 275 FU to 460 MP 250 FU

I've literally not seen an AVRE in the past 3 months - and 250 FU still keeps them pretty pricey for what is a very niche tank.
They were priced at 275 when they could get +15 range from a doc and vet 3, 220 FU would just revert them to what they used to cost before access to those buffs (which now do not exist).
I'd say 220 FU and see how it performs with a proper enticement for players to try it again. If it's then too much we just up the price to 240-250.

JP4/StuG 3: 275 MP 175 FU to 250 MP 150 FU I think JP4s are fine really, but mb can go down to 165

I think they'd continue to be fine at 150 FU, but as you and Dire both think it's too much, sure - 275 MP 165 FU.

Puma 20mm: 280 MP 140 FU to 260 MP 100 FU prob going to regret this when people start fielding 4 at a time

Maybe - we can always look to up it back to 115-125FU if they're too much.

Puma 50mm: 280 MP 160 FU to 280 MP 140 FU (These are not so bad, effective at hunting down shermans, etc

Compromise of 260 MP 140 FU?

Panzergrens: 215 MP to 205 MP (Aren't they functionally closer to grens than rifles?

Wouldn't say so. 3 (near enough) volks rifles + G43 is nice due to the G43, but not really close to 4x Gren rifles. They end up being in a niche where they'll beat rifles at medium range, but not really threaten them long or short.

Panzergrens: Vet Sergeant: 25 MP to 20 MP (sprint for 10 mp is too cheap, its great utility value)

10 Mp might be too cheap, but 20 MP for sprint still seems a bit much. 15 MP for now?

Panzergrens: AT Nade 20 MU to 10 MU (this isnt going to make any difference, the ability needs a rework)

Agreed, but until then maybe at least somebody will buy them. Alternatively, do Dire's proposal and bundle with Incendiaries for a total of 35 MU.

[Mysthalin]

As discussed:

TANK HUNTERS:
Rudimentary Repairs from 15 mu to 20 mu
Advance Repairs from 10 mu to 20 mu