*

Account

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 29, 2020, 07:08:39 pm

Login with username, password and session length

Resources

Recent posts

[Yesterday at 06:57:04 pm]

[October 31, 2020, 05:00:20 pm]

[October 23, 2020, 08:13:51 pm]

[October 04, 2020, 11:57:29 am]

[September 28, 2020, 04:19:00 pm]

[September 01, 2020, 07:30:50 pm]

[August 24, 2020, 08:11:54 pm]

[August 20, 2020, 02:03:15 am]

[August 15, 2020, 04:10:11 am]

by Bear
[August 08, 2020, 02:24:58 am]
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Revised launcher text  (Read 1457 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Illegal_Carrot Offline
Global Moderator
*
Posts: 1043


« on: April 24, 2020, 10:49:24 pm »

Hello. One of the things Volsk wanted for the launcher was polished descriptive and interface text, so I'd like to go ahead and help with that if I can. While I am unable to make these changes myself, hopefully it's easy to copy & paste these for whoever does it. I made this thread here so I can post more stuff as I go through it.
Logged

Quote
Rifle87654: Give me reward points.
Brn4meplz: I'm drunk.
Illegal_Carrot Offline
Global Moderator
*
Posts: 1043


« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2020, 01:47:49 am »

I corrected any incorrect information that I may have found on the doctrine page, but cannot guarantee the accuracy of all descriptions.

US Armor Doctrine; updated, simplified, and standardized:

The Charge at Remagan

M8 Scott, M26 Pershing:
Acceleration & braking +33%
Turret rotation rate +25%
(+40MP on M8, +100MP on M26)

Rangefinding Experts

M4A3E2 Jumbo, M26 Pershing, T34 Calliope:
Weapon scatter -20%
(+30MP)

Next Generation Vehicles

M8 Scott, M26 Pershing:
Reload -15%
When stationary, +7.5m sight
(+40MP on M8, +140MP on M26)

Urban Survival Kit

M4A3(75) & (76) Shermans may purchase Sandbags
Protects against hand-held AT; -25% Penetration, -25% Damage
(+40FU)

M26 Pershing:
M3 90mm cannon base accuracy versus cover significantly improved
Base accuracy versus heavy cover increased to 100%
Base accuracy versus garrison cover increased to 100%
Base accuracy versus smoke cover increased to 50%
(+125MP)

Allied War Machine

Player:
+2 Population for each M4A3(75) Sherman, M4A3(76) Sherman, & M8 Scott on field

M4A3E2 Jumbo:
May purchase Fire White Phosphorus ability
Targets vehicles only, target vehicle receives +25% penetration, 20 second duration, 150 second cooldown
(+30MU)

Let 'Em Have It

M4A3(75) Sherman & M4 Crocodile:
Can garrison up to 6 men
(+10MP)

Engineers:
Gain 35m aura (only affects tanks):
Reload -20%
(+25MP)

Pour It on 'Em

M4 Crocodile:
+5m range on main gun
Rate of fire +25%
(+110MP)

M8 Scott:
Main gun area of effect +0.3m
(+50MP)

T34 Calliope:
Barrage cooldown -80 seconds
(+150MP)

HVAP

M4A3(76) Sherman, M4A3E2 Jumbo, M10 Wolverine, M18 Hellcat:
Penetration +75%
Accuracy +10%
Damage -15%
(+100MP)

M26 Pershing:
Increased penetration & damage versus enemy vehicles
(+150MP)

McNair's Doctrine

M10 Wolverine:
Received XP +100%
Gains Sherman armor
(+75MP)

M18 Hellcat:
Received XP +100%
Gains Greyhound armor
(+50MP)

Mechanized Support

Halftracks & Light Vehicles:
Gain Tank criticals
Can capture & hold territory
(+20MP)

Infantry-Tank Telephones

M4A3(75) & (76) Shermans, M4A3E2 Jumbo, M8 Scott, M10 Wolverine:
Gain 45m aura, disables Pak cloak
(+30MP)

Support weapons teams:
When with 45m of a tank
Accuracy +20%
(+20MP)

Staccato Roar

Light Vehicles & Tanks:
Co-axial & hull MGs gain M1917 LMG stats
(+100MP & 50MU on Tanks, +50MP & 25MU on Light Vehicles)

All Shermans & Tank Destroyers:
Gain 35m aura, only affects friendly infantry
-40% received suppression
-75% cooldown on M2 Grenade & Sticky Bomb
(+25MP)

HMG Weapons Team:
May purchase permanent AP rounds
(+100MP)

Last Ditch

Riflemen may purchase:
1x Hawkins Mine, slows vehicles for 30 seconds
(+15MU)
1x Minesweeper [disables M2 Grenade & Sticky Bomb items]
(+10MU)

Marines may purchase:
2x M1 Bazooka
(+80MU)

Modified Ammunition

M18 Hellcat may purchase:
Treadbreaker ability
Targets vehicles only, target vehicle -50% speed for 30 seconds
(+40MU)

Mass Production

Vehicles may purchase additional repair kits
Repairs for 50 seconds (Light), 100 seconds (Medium), or 150 seconds (Heavy)
(+30MU on Halftracks & Light Vehicles, +45MU Tanks & Tank Destroyers, +90MU on M4A3E2 Jumbo, +110MU on M26 Pershing)

Recon Sweep

Platoon Radioman may purchase:
Forward Intelligence
Reveals all enemy weapon crews, artillery, & Panzer Elite halftracks through the fog of war
(+20MU each, 3 max)

Tactical Bombers

Platoon Radioman may purchase:
Broken Arrow
Allied P-47s will engage enemy vehicles with rockets
(+60MU)

Calling It In

Platoon Radioman may purchase:
Calling It In
All vehicles & tanks:
+33% Accuracy
-10% Cooldown
-10% Reload
+5m detection range
30 second duration, 90 second cooldown, 4 uses total
(+120MU)

Assault Company
Unlocked for purchase:

M4A3E2 Jumbo
Modified Sherman tank with extra HP & armor
(495MP, 300FU, 13 Pop)

Assault Engineers
4-man assault squad with Ranger stats, armed with shotguns
(240MP, 80MU, 5 Pop)

Mechanized Artillery
Unlocked for purchase:

M8 Scott
Light tank equipped with a 75mm Howitzer cannon
(300MP, 140FU, 9 Pop)

T34 Calliope
Modified Sherman tank with main gun disabled, equipped with 4.5" rocket racks for indirect fire
Barrage cooldown: 240 seconds
(500MP, 365FU, 10 Pop)

Heavy Cavalry
Unlocked for purchase:

M26 Pershing
Next-generation heavy tank, equipped with a 90mm cannon & 4" of armor
(850MP, 545FU, 16 Pop)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 01:54:45 pm by Illegal_Carrot » Logged
Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
*
Posts: 18383


« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2020, 04:07:23 am »

Brilliant! I really like this. Short and simple. If volsky agrees I can make the changes and we can use this as a template for other docs.

Maybe just one point is on the percentages. AFAIK volsky wants to continue using 1.XX and 0.XX as that's applied differently than % or something like that, though I do agree for new players % approach is more straight forward.

Quote
Accuracy versus cover significantly improved
Can anyone actually dig out the stats for this?
Logged
tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
*
Posts: 8971


« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2020, 09:17:33 am »

......... AFAIK volsky wants to continue using 1.XX and 0.XX as that's applied differently than % or something like that, though I do agree for new players % approach is more straight forward..........

Cuz math is sneaky like that. Here's a layman's example why percentages can be misleading when you stack abilities:


I sell a widget for 100.00. The beginning of the year, the price increased by 30%. After the increase, an employee purchased it with a 30% decrease, a 30% discount. What price did the employee pay?


Most people would answer "the original price", but that would be incorrect. Here's why:

30% increase = 1.3
30% decrease = .7

100*1.3*0.7= 91
Logged

Quote
Geez, while Wind was banned I forgot that he is, in fact, totally insufferable
I'm not going to lie Tig, 9/10 times you open your mouth, I'm overwhelmed with the urge to put my foot in it.
Tachibana Offline
NotADev
*
Posts: 1285


« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2020, 11:37:41 am »


M26 Pershing:
Accuracy versus cover significantly improved
(+125MP)


Relevent values here are:
+100% acc vs Heavy cover (0.5 -> 1.0)
+33% acc vs Garrison cover (0.75 -> 1.0)
+100% acc vs Smoke cover (0.25 -> 0.5)
Logged

It's like saying "i can understand his concerns that fire breathing dragons live in far away lands"
americans dont dodge wars.
Quote from: Trapfabricator
Literally, The only thing less likely than this is zombie hitler becoming prime minister of israel
Illegal_Carrot Offline
Global Moderator
*
Posts: 1043


« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2020, 01:55:42 pm »

Relevent values here are:
+100% acc vs Heavy cover (0.5 -> 1.0)
+33% acc vs Garrison cover (0.75 -> 1.0)
+100% acc vs Smoke cover (0.25 -> 0.5)
Thanks for these, I've incorporated them into the revision.

Question: Should we change the descriptive text to be more flavorful (without affecting the necessary information) at all? ie changing "Unlocked for purchase: M26 Pershing" to "Approved for requisition: M26 Pershing" or anything like that?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 02:04:17 pm by Illegal_Carrot » Logged
TheVolskinator Offline
Administrator / Lead Developer
*
Posts: 3051



« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2020, 08:34:36 pm »

Cuz math is sneaky like that. Here's a layman's example why percentages can be misleading when you stack abilities:


I sell a widget for 100.00. The beginning of the year, the price increased by 30%. After the increase, an employee purchased it with a 30% decrease, a 30% discount. What price did the employee pay?


Most people would answer "the original price", but that would be incorrect. Here's why:

30% increase = 1.3
30% decrease = .7

100*1.3*0.7= 91

Thank you, kind sir. My argument from day 1; we don't use additive math; instead, we use multiplicative.
Logged

Quote from: tank130
I want to ensure we have a 100% decision on the process before we do the wipe.
If not, then I wipe, then someone gets something they shouldn't, then it gets abused, then the shit hits the fan and then I ban shab.

Getting EiR:R Released on Steam

Forum Rules & Guidelines
TheVolskinator Offline
Administrator / Lead Developer
*
Posts: 3051



« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2020, 08:35:11 pm »

Thanks for these, I've incorporated them into the revision.

Question: Should we change the descriptive text to be more flavorful (without affecting the necessary information) at all? ie changing "Unlocked for purchase: M26 Pershing" to "Approved for requisition: M26 Pershing" or anything like that?

Negative.
Logged
Illegal_Carrot Offline
Global Moderator
*
Posts: 1043


« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2020, 09:01:57 pm »

WM Defensive Doctrine; updated, simplified, and standardized:

Pre-registered Artillery

7.5cm le IG:
+10m range
(+120MP)

8.8cm Flak 36:
Gains Fire Artillery Barrage indirect fire ability
Fires 3 8.8cm shells, gun is disabled for 30 seconds after firing
(+100MP)

Cover & Evasion Tactics

Infantry:
Gain cloak in light & heavy cover, no ambush bonus
(+15MP, +10MP on Pioneers)

5cm Pak 38:
Can move slowly while cloaked
(+75MP)

7.5cm Pak 40:
Gains stationary cloak, no ambush bonus
(+50MP)

Oberkommando West

Company:
Call-in Timers -25%

5cm Pak 38, 7.5cm Pak 40:
+7.5m vision and detection
(+20MP)

Hammer of the Wehrmacht

For the Fatherland:
Now effective in all sectors
Infantry receive only 50% of bonus in neutral and enemy territory

Scoped StG44 upgrades:
Upgrade now also confers Steady Aim toggle ability
Unit will only walk, Moving Accuracy +50%

Unbreakable

Infantry and HMG teams:
Passively heal at a rate of +0.3HP per second
(+20MP)

Bunkers:
HP +25%
Gain Unbreakable aura ability
Received Damage -15% for all friendly infantry and support weapons
60m aura, 20 second duration, 120 second cooldown

Booming Voice

Officer:
Supervision ability cooldown -25%
(+50MP)

Knights Cross Holders:
Gain a passive 35m defensive aura
Confers a defensive zeal to Volksgrenadiers and Grenadiers
(+50MP)

Grenadiers:
May individually purchase a passive defensive zeal
(+40MP)

Assault Training

Volksgrenadiers:
Unlocks a 6-man Volksgrenadiers unit
(220MP, 5 Pop)

Pioneers:
Unlocks a 3-man Pioneer unit
(200MP, 4 Pop)

Advanced Crew Training

Support weapon teams, Flak 36 crew:
Gain Heroic armor
Weapon HP +25%
(+30MP)

Flak 36:
Reload -25%

Ammunition Stockpile

All bunkers:
Gain Ammunition Stockpile aura ability
Cooldown -20% for all friendly infantry
60m aura, 20 second duration, 120 second cooldown

Grenade, Assault Grenade upgrades:
+1 use

Veterans of the Long War

Grenadiers:
Gain Heroic criticals
(+40MP)

Hitler's Buzzsaw

HMG42:
Creates new HMG squad
Incremental Accuracy increased to 1.2
No penalty versus smoke cover
(325MP, 60MU)

LMG42:
Rate of fire +33%

Ostfront Veterans

Volksgrenadiers, Pioneers, HMGs:
Received Accuracy -15% while in heavy, garrison, or trench cover
Volksgrenadiers, Pioneers, Support Weapon Teams:
+10 HP per man
(+20MP)

Explosives

Volksgrenadiers, Grenadiers:
May purchase 1x Grenade Assault ability
Unit breaks suppression, throws several grenades
(+60MU on Volksgrenadiers, +50MU on Grenadiers)

Pioneers:
May purchase 5x Butterfly Mines
Effective against infantry
(+35MU)

Standard Supply

Volksgrenadiers:
May purchase 1x Panzerschreck
May purchase 2x or 4x Scoped StG44s

Grenadiers:
May purchase 2x Panzerschreck
May purchase 2x or 4x Scoped StG44s

Knights Cross Holders:
May purchase 2x Scoped StG44s
Unlocks Skirmisher Package loadout; includes 3x G43s and Grenades

Arming the Militia

Volksgrenadiers:
May purchase 2x Grenades (+25MU)
May purchase 1x LMG26 (+50MU)

Pioneers:
May purchase 1x Bundle Grenade (+40MU)
May purchase 3x Volksgrenadier K98K (+10MP)

Vengeance Weapon

Stabskompanie Liason may purchase:
V1 Rocket Strike
A massive V1 rocket will cause tremendous damage within the vicinity of the target
(+90MU)

For the Fatherland

Stabskompanie Liason may purchase:
Up to 2x For the Fatherland
Affects infantry and support weapon crews, only affects units in friendly territory
Received Damage -30%, Received Accuracy -20%, Received Suppression -75%
30 second duration
(+60MU each)

Rocket Artillery

Stabskompanie Liason may purchase:
28cm Rocket Barrage
Drops 12 rockets in a 20m radius
(+100MU)

Sturm Kompanie
Unlocked for purchase:

Leutnant
3-man officer squad with Supervision aura ability
Only affects infantry and weapon crews
Accuracy +25%, Damage +15%
35m range, 20 second duration, 120 second cooldown

Schwere Waffen Kompanie
Unlocked for purchase:

7.5cm le IG
Light field artillery piece
(380MP, 120MU, 5 Pop)

7.5cm Pak 40
Heavy anti-tank gun
(350MP, 150MU, 5 Pop)

8.8cm Flak 36
Heavy emplaced anti-air / anti-tank gun
(450MP, 220FU, 8 Pop)

Sanitats Kompanie
Unlocked for purchase:

Ambulance
Heals infantry and weapon teams garrisoned inside for +2HP per second
(220MP, 65MU, 25FU, 3 Pop)

Pioneers may purchase:
Medic Bunker
Heals friendly infantry, within 15m, for +2HP per second
Also repairs HMGs, ATGs, and mortars
(+140MU, 3 Pop)
Logged
TheVolskinator Offline
Administrator / Lead Developer
*
Posts: 3051



« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2020, 10:26:40 pm »

Why is there such an aversion to decimals? 1.25 is just as clear to me as +25%; additionally, it's a far more accurate display of how our buffs are applied (as multipliers). This is not just @ Carrot, EVERYONE seems to have some sort of phobia when it comes to decimals.

Additionally, while I appreciate that some of my descriptions can be wordy, I don't see how cutting out this much information is necessary.

Leutnant "WM Officer" (230 MP, 100 MU, 3 pop)
   - 3-man officer squad w. one officer and two bodyguards armed w. Gren K98ks.
   - Command aura: 1.25 acc., 1.15 dmg. to owned infantry and crew weapons within 35 m. 20 s/120 s recharge.
   - Even if the officer himself is killed, you can keep the two bodyguards on the field to farm kills with.
   - Heroic armor conveys the same benefits and weaknesses as KCH.

vs.

Leutnant
3-man officer squad with Supervision aura ability
Only affects infantry and weapon crews
Accuracy +25%, Damage +15%
35m range, 20 second duration, 120 second cooldown

My aura descriptions were put together like that with a logical thought process behind them; What bonus am I getting? What units does the bonus affect? How far does it reach? How long does it last, and what's the recharge? Hence "1.25 acc., 1.15 dmg. to owned infantry and crew weapons within 35 m. 20 s/120 s recharge." It rolls off the tongue (imho) if you read it aloud to yourself.

I'm not condemning anything here, I just don't understand why what I've written is so undesirable.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 10:53:32 pm by TheVolskinator » Logged
aeroblade56 Offline
Development
*
Posts: 3913



« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2020, 01:05:12 am »

Why is there such an aversion to decimals? 1.25 is just as clear to me as +25%; additionally, it's a far more accurate display of how our buffs are applied (as multipliers). This is not just @ Carrot, EVERYONE seems to have some sort of phobia when it comes to decimals.

Additionally, while I appreciate that some of my descriptions can be wordy, I don't see how cutting out this much information is necessary.

Leutnant "WM Officer" (230 MP, 100 MU, 3 pop)
   - 3-man officer squad w. one officer and two bodyguards armed w. Gren K98ks.
   - Command aura: 1.25 acc., 1.15 dmg. to owned infantry and crew weapons within 35 m. 20 s/120 s recharge.
   - Even if the officer himself is killed, you can keep the two bodyguards on the field to farm kills with.
   - Heroic armor conveys the same benefits and weaknesses as KCH.

vs.

Leutnant
3-man officer squad with Supervision aura ability
Only affects infantry and weapon crews
Accuracy +25%, Damage +15%
35m range, 20 second duration, 120 second cooldown

My aura descriptions were put together like that with a logical thought process behind them; What bonus am I getting? What units does the bonus affect? How far does it reach? How long does it last, and what's the recharge? Hence "1.25 acc., 1.15 dmg. to owned infantry and crew weapons within 35 m. 20 s/120 s recharge." It rolls off the tongue (imho) if you read it aloud to yourself.

I'm not condemning anything here, I just don't understand why what I've written is so undesirable.

i for one don't like reading the new king Volskinator version of the ww2 bible everytime i open up my unit screen.

Let me show you exactly what we have been trying to fix.

T16 Carrier '50 cal modified:  Behavior changed: aa_weapon_shoot_through set to True (ignores shot blockers when targeting aircraft).\r\n   Kill crit chance vs. flyer criticals set to 1/2/4 at green (100% HP-40% HP)/yellow (40% HP-5% HP)/red (5% or less HP) crit thresholds.Net acc. vs. P-47 armor set to 0.15. Traverse speed increased from 25 */s to 100 */s.
Health increased from 215 to 300.
Hull traverse speed increased from 50 */s to 60 */s.Vickers MG modified: Arc of fire increased from 90 * to 120 *.
Behavior changed: aa_weapon_shoot_through set to True (ignores shot blockers when targeting aircraft). Kill crit chance vs. flyer criticals set to 1/1/1 at green (100% HP-40% HP)/yellow (40% HP-5% HP)/red (5% or less HP) crit thresholds. Net acc. vs. P-47 armor set to ~0.05. Suppression reduced from  0.02/0.01/0.01 to 0.015/0.0075/0.0075 at S/M/L ranges.
Visual location moved from the hull MG position to the pintle MG position.


No new person is going to jump into the mod and be like oh gee i cant wait to see my t16 pom pom that wasnt really in vcoh shootdown  p47 Thunderbolt jugg aerodynamic planeforce.

All Carrot and most of us are saying from a very basic and simple standpoint is that there is a very basic amount of information that is relevant to the game.  our Launcher is currently old and bloated as it is. to save on space and make our ugly beast more appealing for newer players and older ones the Percentages and simplification make totally logical sense.

We have corsix for a reason we have a flippin stats request channel on discord for that more indepth information.
Logged

You are welcome to your opinion.

You are also welcome to be wrong.
Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
*
Posts: 18383


« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2020, 05:10:24 am »

Quote
Even if the officer himself is killed, you can keep the two bodyguards on the field to farm kills with.
   - Heroic armor conveys the same benefits and weaknesses as KCH.

I'd have to agree with carrot, aero and others that this is redundant information to be honest. Just tell people what the officer buffs is and/or give a 1 line summary of what the unit is about. vCOH players know what a pershing is, and non vCOH players will understand the concept of a "heavy tank".

Here's another example:

Quote
AVRE (460 MP, 275 FU, 10 pop)
   -Churchill tank with a devastating Petard mortar.
      -Must be manually fired; 45 s recharge.
      -Will one-shot nearly every entity in the game, other than vehicles (which will lose ~50% of their HP on a direct hit).
   -Poor turret rotation can get the AVRE killed; make sure to point the hull at what you want to target before firing.
   -Terrible mobility (3.85 m/s) in-line with other Churchills.

all of the above could literally be summarised as "churchill tank that fires single devastating explosive shells, on cooldown".

I really get what you're trying to do by giving players as much information as possible, including even advice on how to use the unit, and while i think it's the right instinct in general, the unlock screen is not the place to do that. It's just an overwhelming amount of information for the 1% of players who would have no prior notion of any of the units they are buying, dont have enough information with just a one line summary and actually would have the patience to come into a new mod and spend 20 minutes just reading the doctrine screen to figure out what the hell any of it all means. We want the mod to be "jump in and play" as much as possible, and the current approach to doctrines (including stacking 3-4 buffs per unlock with lengthy descriptions) is the antithesis to that.

Think about it the other way. When you first played COH, did you first read through a manual of what every single unit does and how to use it? I doubt it. You just took the unit based on a single description and tried it. Same should apply to EIR, especially because it will be easy to unselect unlocks and try different things.

We don't want people to go into the doctrine screen and be like "fuck this shit" just by trying to figure out what the hell it all means and having to go through 21 lengthy descriptions of a multiple of that in units and unlocks. I almost actually gave up on the mod when I came back a year ago and saw that. And I'm a seasoned player.

So please, let it go. I will save the doctrine selection and unit lists so the information isn't lost and we can actually look to put that more extensive information on a wiki.


On percentages or decimals I'm less dogmatic. I think %s are slightly more straightforward but 1.25 or 0.75 is easy enough. It wont make a big dfference compared to the general issue with our descriptions ad overkll on multiple units and unlocks, so if you really want to stick by decimals I think thats fine.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 05:17:50 am by Unkn0wn » Logged
Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
*
Posts: 9051


« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2020, 08:02:27 am »

I'm not dogmatic about either percentages or multipliers either.

To the people that understand the maths behind the game confusion won't be a problem.
To the people that don't... they'll get confused by either method regardless (and chances are won't really pay too much attention anyway).

I'm in strong favour of crimson's suggestions. When I talk to people in OMG that were former EiR players the walls of text come up as really heartfelt grievance. I don't understand why, but they actually get pretty emotional about it.
Logged

tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
*
Posts: 8971


« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2020, 08:49:50 am »

I agree with the overall spirit here as well. Less wordy descriptions are beneficial in the launcher.

Is there a VERY obvious and easily located source people can go to find more detailed descriptions? For some people, it may be handy to have that source open while picking / building their company.

OR - with the launcher rebuild - is there a way to click a +tab or similar that would allow a fly out of extra info? Certainly not a priority or top tier "to do" but it may be an idea to make coding space for while you recode.
Logged
Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
*
Posts: 18383


« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2020, 09:49:50 am »

Yes with new launcher you could prob have extended tooltips that only pop up after prolonged hovering over an unlock or with a button. Though I suppose that wouldnt be very high on list.

Easiest thing would be to dig out the old wiki and sticky it in stat request channel and on forum. We should push all players to use discord anyway.

Quote
When I talk to people in OMG that were former EiR players the walls of text come up as really heartfelt grievance. I don't understand why, but they actually get pretty emotional about it.
I think it's a perception thing. They see current state of EIR as having been made way more complicated and a lot of them just can't be bothered to re-learn or dig through details it with how clunky launcher is to begin with. Even if the mod isn't necessarily a lot more complex, it's definitely off-putting. And you have a mod out there that basically offers the same experience but in a way more simplified way, so why would you bother.

Same problem with historical unit names and the loads of reward units, new abilities, etc. Hence why a bunch of us have been saying we need to cut it all down and simplify it, which volsky is planning to do, but need to apply that across the board.
Logged
Illegal_Carrot Offline
Global Moderator
*
Posts: 1043


« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2020, 05:51:35 pm »

Cuz math is sneaky like that. Here's a layman's example why percentages can be misleading when you stack abilities:
I am fully aware of how %s work (interest rates, compounding interest, etc). It's something I considered and factored in when writing these, and it's also something I've discussed with others to get a variety of perspectives.

One of the things I did with this revision was ensure that it still conveys all the same information, and still conveys it correctly to the audience. "Damage * 1.15" is the same thing as "Damage +15%". The '+' indicates that this this a positive increase to a unit's stat on the latter, as does the '* 1.XX' on the former. However, I'm sure we can all understand that '+X%' or '-X%' is much easier to parse and understand than '* 1.XX' or '* 0.XX' to the average person, especially new players.

If anything, the '* X.XX' method is more likely to add errors and unnecessary steps to the equation. For example, when decreasing a value, you must list it as '* 0.XX'. The audience must first catch the difference and then do mental match to actually understand the % and amount that is being reduced. Take Armor doctrine's HVAP. The -15% Damage de-buff is snuck in there with the massive penetration and modest accuracy buff. People are just more used (thru culture, education, society, whatever) to look for a + or a - than a 1 or a 0. From there you have to the mental math and subtract 0.85 from 1.00 to get 0.15, or 15%, to finally understand that it's a -15% Damage debuff. Why add all those unnecessary steps, when "Damage -15%" works just as well?

For anyone who really wants to dig in and calculate the stats, there's nothing stopping them from typing '* 1.15' into their calculator to calculate.

For % change doctrine buffs (which is how the majority of buffs are handled), then '+/- X%' is an obvious, intuitive, and instantly understandable way of conveying just what that doctrine selection will do for a unit, regardless of any other factors. For the rarer exception of a specifically additive buff (ie, +Xm range on a weapon) are specifically listed in such a way so as not to be confused at all with multiplicative buffs. See Armor doctrine's Pour It on 'Em:
Quote
Pour It on 'Em

M4 Crocodile:
+5m range on main gun
Rate of fire +25%
(+110MP)

M8 Scott:
Main gun area of effect +0.3m
(+50MP)

T34 Calliope:
Barrage cooldown -80 seconds
(+150MP)

From there, any further calculations are carried out in simple order of operations.

Thank you, kind sir. My argument from day 1; we don't use additive math; instead, we use multiplicative.
'+X%' is multiplicative. %s are inherently multiplicative. This is just writing them out in a more intuitive and commonly understood way.

Why is there such an aversion to decimals? 1.25 is just as clear to me as +25%; additionally, it's a far more accurate display of how our buffs are applied (as multipliers). This is not just @ Carrot, EVERYONE seems to have some sort of phobia when it comes to decimals.
It's 'just as clear' to you because you know this game and this mod better than anyone else. But not everyone has that deep-level understanding of all the underlying systems. Not everyone wants to perform mental math or calculations to get an idea of what a doctrine does.

Let me pose the same question to you another way: Why is it that CoH2 went with a simple 'Damage +3%' method of listing their unit buffs and not 'Damage * 1.03'? Why is it that MOBAs, like LoL, list item and ability stat increases as either a flat amount ('Damage +10') or a simple % ('Damage +10%'), but never as 'Damage * 1.10'? When businesses advertise a sale to the world, why do they always advertise 'prices 25% off' but never as 'prices * 0.75'?

I'm not condemning anything here, I just don't understand why what I've written is so undesirable.
"Undesirable" is absolutely not what I would describe the current descriptions. They're all accurate (or at least were at the time of writing), and contain relevant technical information. I'm just trying to add a layer of polish on top of that. You yourself said:
- Launcher text needs to be edited and formatted properly. Sloppy editing and text simply looks bad, and gives off a mediocre impression to any visitors. I, personally, insist on a high standard in this regard. It's not difficult to do, and it adds a lot of polish to the mod.
Beyond that, descriptors should be revised from time to time to keep them accurate and relevant, and many descriptors are currently outdated.

Is there a VERY obvious and easily located source people can go to find more detailed descriptions? For some people, it may be handy to have that source open while picking / building their company.
This has come up a few times so far, and I think is the crux of the matter. All the current information listed in the launcher may be relevant to a player for any number of reasons, and so is important in it's own way. But the launcher page is not the best place to have and display all of that information at once. Something like a thorough wiki, or an EiR equivalent to CoH Stats (EiR Stats, anyone?) would do wonders for the mod (it seems like all modern games have a relevant wiki associated with them). The current sidebar (unit leaderboard, price list, map list, launcher lobby status) is excellent for what it is, but is admittedly limited. Perhaps if we could incorporated wiki elements into that, it could be an even handier player resource tool.

We should try to get the forums a little more lively, too.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 06:06:22 pm by Illegal_Carrot » Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

TinyPortal v1.0 beta 4 © Bloc
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.9 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.259 seconds with 35 queries.